Foreknew?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by God's_Servant, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. God's_Servant

    God's_Servant
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    Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
    Romans 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
    1Pe 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

    What did God foreknow? I can't figure it out. Please give references.
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
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    God knew who would believe.

    John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    Jesus knew "from the beginning" who would believe not and who would betray him. Therefore he also knows who will believe. This is shown several places.

    John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
    46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
    47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
    48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
    49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.


    Notice it says Jesus saw Nathaniel coming to him. Notice Nathaniel asked "whence knowest thou me", and notice even before Philip went to Nathaniel that Jesus saw him.

    We see this in the story of the prodigal son.

    Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

    This young man was coming home, but he was still a filthy sinner. But notice it says while he was yet a great way off his father saw him.

    Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    God in his foreknowledge knew that Jeremiah would be a man of faith and chose him to be a prophet.

    The Calvinists here will object to everything I have shown, but they will not be able to tell you what God foreknew.
     
  3. annsni

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    Of course God foreknows everything. I don't think there's a Calvinist who will disagree with you. However, it's the idea that God chose to make the elect those who He saw would choose Him. That's just weird and certainly not at all in keeping with the idea of the "elect".
     
  4. Robert Snow

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    This is the crux of the problem. This is exactly what I believe is the case. I don't see why believing this is a problem?

    I fear this is an impasse we will never come to agreement on.
     
  5. canadyjd

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    It is clear in the Romans 8:29 passage that "foreknew" refers to knowing in a relationship not "knowing" as in intellectual activity.

    In I Pet. 1:1-2, foreknowledge may refer to "elect" or to the persecution as exiles.

    Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Greek can decypher it. I understand it is difficult to understand.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  6. Winman

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    Are you saying that the elect had a personal relationship with the Father before they were born?

    Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    Did God have a personal relationship with Jeremiah even before he was formed? This word formed is the same as used when speaking of Adam when he was formed of the dust, created.

    Are you saying the elect existed before the foundation of the world?
     
  7. OldRegular

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    According to Romans 8:29, 30 those chosen to Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-6] were already glorified in the mind of GOD.

    29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
     
  8. Winman

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    You are not chosen to believe in Christ, you are chosen because you are in Christ. Go back to Ephesians 1:4 again.

    Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    God chooses or elects those who are "in Christ". You must first believe on Christ before you can be chosen by God the Father.

    This is why Jesus said you can only come to the Father through himself.

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    You can't come to the Father, and he won't come to you unless you first come to Jesus. Jesus is the mediator between us and the Father.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    And Romans 8:29-30 is speaking of believers.

    The scriptures show:

    Sinner -----> Jesus -----> Father

    You teach:

    Father -----> regenerates sinner -----> Jesus

    Your doctrine is unscriptural. Read 1 Timothy 2:5 carefully and notice Jesus is placed between us and the Father. That is not the order your doctrine teaches whatsoever.
     
    #8 Winman, Jan 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2010
  9. canadyjd

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    That is what the Romans passage says.
    The relationship with God existed before the foundation of the world. That is what the text states.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  10. Havensdad

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    Not so. We are justified by faith.

    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith...

    Once we have faith, we are justified. Yet, justification comes AFTER God's predestination and call...

    Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


    This is why Jesus said...

    Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

    First, predestined, then called, faith/justified. That is the biblical order.


    But no one can come, unless FIRST drawn...

    Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.




    Right. The electing of believers OUT OF the people of the world.

    Actually you are wrong. The scriptures clearly teach that God must draw us, through the Spirit, before we CAN come to Jesus. It is your doctrine that is unbiblical.
     
  11. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Call comes first

    The call comes first because we have been predestined in Christ. Without the call to be in Christ you cannot be predestined. Jesus is the one chosen before the foundation of the world and being in Him makes us predestined with Him.
     
  12. canadyjd

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    That is not what the passage says.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  13. OldRegular

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    Winman

    You just can't understand English!
     
  14. AresMan

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    No, but the Eternal God had a relationship with them "before" they were born.

    God, being Almighty and eternal can have a "relationship" with someone "before" he has a relationship back with God. Notice that the verse does not say "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew what thou wouldst do." It says: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew THEE." Jeremiah, NOT his actions, God knew.

    The same is with Romans 8:29. It says: "For whom he did foreknow..." If the verse said "For whom he did know" most reasonable people would understand that a person being the direct object of know implies a personal relationship. Adding the prefix fore- (proginwskw) does not change the definition from a personal relationship to a cognizance of actions. It merely makes the word mean to have a personal relationship with beforehand. It does not say "For of whom he did foreknow;" it says "For whom he did foreknow."

    Compare this to Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee." God knew (had a personal relationship with) Jeremiah before Jeremiah was even conceived. Another way of phrasing the verse to demonstrate the before...knew construct could be to rephrase the verse like this: "When I formed thee in the belly I foreknew thee."

    No. You do not understand the concept of God foreknowing/fore-relationshipping people. God can have a relationship with someone before that person exists and before that person has a relationship back with God.

    The elect did exist in the mind of God before the foundation of the world--temporally speaking.
     
  15. AresMan

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    You are misreading and misunderstanding the grammar. "in him" is not an adjective to modify "us;" it is an adverb to modify "chosen." "in him" dictates how He chose us. He chose us to be "in him." It is NOT saying that He chose "us in him" or that He chose "us who are in him" or "us who will be in him."

    Let's not forget this verse that proves your assertion wrong:
    "In the behalf of Christ" just like "in Christ" modifies given, not you.

    Those. Who. Believe. In. Jesus. Received. This. From. God.


    The Father blessed us in Christ. How?...
    He chose us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world that He would sanctify us as His people. How was this sanctification brought about?...
    He predestinated us to be adopted by Jesus Christ to himself. Christ is the One Who does the adopting. An adopter chooses the adopted. The adoption is both transitive and reflexive: Christ adopts us to Himself. Why were we adopted?...
    To praise and demonstrate God's grace. His grace is what made us "accepted in the beloved [Jesus Christ]." We do not make ourselves accepted in Christ; God the Father makes us accepted in Christ. Now, how does the Father make us accepted in Christ?...
    Do you know what redemption means? Christ purchased something with His blood. When one purchases something, one obtains what one purchased. Christ did not purchase an empty deed or a lottery ticket. He purchased the Church; He purchased a people. Our election is made effective through Christ purchasing us with His blood, bringing about our forgiveness of sins. This all has to do with us being the recipients of God's grace.

    Absolutely unscriptural!

    Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of [from] the Father, cometh unto me.

    No one comes unless the Father effectually draws and teaches him.

    Do you know what mediation entails?

    G3316
    μεσίτης
    mesitēs
    mes-ee'-tace
    From G3319; a go between, that is, (simply) an internunciator, or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor): - mediator.

    Mediation is not an attempt at anything. When an Old Testament priest mediated between an Israelite and God, the action resulted in reconciliation. When Christ mediates on behalf of a person, that person is reconciled.

    Yes, Romans 8:29-30 is about believers. It is about how they become believers--before and after. The call in verse 30 is the inward call to salvation. The ones that God predestinated for sanctification (to be set apart as His people), He then called. Obviously this "call" simply CANNOT be the universal general call! Why? Because the verse says that those God called He also justified. None of these verses place any kind of autonomous contribution of man into the picture.

    Those whom God foreknew/fore-relationshipped (called according to His purpose), He predestinated for sanctification, called, justified, and glorified. You cannot break the golden chain of redemption.

    Yes, Jesus is placed between us and the Father. The Father draws and teaches a people and gives them to the Son. All whom the Father gives to the Son will come. Those who come will not be cast out. Of all that the Son receives none will be lost. All these will be raised up at the last day. The whole transaction is between the Father and the Son with the Holy Spirit bringing about the effects in God's people. Jesus as High Priest mediates between the Father and His people. This mediation works and does not fail!
     
    #15 AresMan, Jan 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2010
  16. psalms109:31

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    Chosen

    We were chosen in Christ, because none of us is worthy to be chosen apart from Him.

    Ephesians 1:11
    In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

    1 Peter 2:6
    For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

    1 Peter 1:18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

    Romans 7:4
    So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

    Romans 12:5
    so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

    1 Corinthians 12:12
    The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

    1 Corinthians 12:27
    Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

    One in Christ
    11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
    14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

    Ephesians 2:19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

    Ephesians 3:6
    This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


    It was Jesus body that was chosen before the foundation the only way we were chosen was by being in it. None of you including myself were worthy of being chosen, but being in Jesus where God doesn't see you but His Son. You in of yourself can never be chosen, but only in Christ could you be. Don't think highly of yourself but highly of Him.
     
    #16 psalms109:31, Jan 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2010
  17. canadyjd

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    First, what version of scripture are you quoting?

    Second, scripture is clear that God has chosen some for salvation according to the kind intention of His will.

    It has nothing to do with "thinking highly of yourself", or believing you are "worthy" to be chosen (who has claimed such a thing?) but believing what scripture clearly teaches.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  18. Amy.G

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    Yes. Some are chosen....those who are "in Christ". You are never chosen apart from Him, or in other words, before you had faith in Him.
     
  19. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Truth

    When men exchanged the word whosoever to the elect men have totally misrepresented the word of God. See we were chosen for being in Christ not apart from Him. It is what the scripture teaches. As long as men exchange whosoever, all, and foreknew to fit their doctrine, you cannot explain anything to them.
     
  20. canadyjd

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    And so, we disagree.

    peace to you:praying:
     

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