FOREKNOWLEDGE

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by inpeace, Jul 1, 2005.

  1. inpeace

    inpeace
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    If God foreknew who would be saved - then he also foreknew who would be lost. If we argue that it is not God's will that any should perish, then why did he create them with the full knowledge that they would be lost? Was God willing something that he knew he couldn't achieve?
     
  2. TaterTot

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    Judas was chosen for his job.
     
  3. TexasSky

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    If we argue that it is not God's will that any should perish, then why did he create them with the full knowledge that they would be lost?

    If you argue that it is not God's will that any should perish - you are merely quoting scripture.
     
  4. inpeace

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    How does this tie in with 'foreknowledge?'. Why did God will what he already foreknew would happen? On the same note, if God foreknew who would be saved, then why do we preach that God wants to save everyone? That would mean he is trying to save more than those he 'foreknew?' :confused:
     
  5. Wes Outwest

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    For anything in rough form to be made smooth, there must be an abrasive to applied to knock down the roughness, to smooth out the surfaces, round the corners, soften the effects, etc.

    There is something about "Iron sharpens iron", likewise, "Iron dulls iron" depending on the skill of the craftsman.
     
  6. inpeace

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  7. Monergist

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    Arminians have more knots with this than they can untie, which may be why they haven't exactly lined up to answer your questions.

    I do accept that God "is not willing that any should perish" because that is stated in scripture. "Any" must refer to something, however, and in this case it refers to the elect. God is not willing that any of His elect perish.
     
  8. johnp.

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    We are pearls of great price.

    john.
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    Arminians have more knots with this than they can untie, which may be why they haven't exactly lined up to answer your questions.

    I do accept that God "is not willing that any should perish" because that is stated in scripture. "Any" must refer to something, however, and in this case it refers to the elect. God is not willing that any of His elect perish.
    </font>[/QUOTE]While Arminians may have a lot of knots in the one line, Calvinists have so many lines they cannot keep them straight! If one line doesn't work throw another one out to confuse!

    Most of us do not believe the false doctrine of election. Most of us do not agree with your definition of foreknowledge and predestination. Most of us see those things as affecting principalities and powers in which individuals become entangled. "We struggle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers." Paul said that!
     
  10. TexasSky

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    Inpeace,

    I think we're on the same side. ;)

    I don't believe that God created a "John Smith can go to heaven, but John Doe can't," list before man was created. I believe God created a list that goes, "Some will accept Christ, they are going to heaven, some will reject Christ, they will not go to heaven," kind of list.
     
  11. Andre

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    I do not believe this because it seems to imply that Judas could not have "chosen to do otherwise". And I just can't accept accountability without accompanying freedom - the ability to choose the right path.

    I used to think that there was a logical problem with upholding both God's foreknowledge and man's free will. I now think the 2 notions can, indeed, work together without contradiction.

    In brief, I think that if Judas has chosen the honourable path, God's plan for Jesus to die could still be accomplished through other means.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    I do not believe this because it seems to imply that Judas could not have "chosen to do otherwise". And I just can't accept accountability without accompanying freedom - the ability to choose the right path.

    I used to think that there was a logical problem with upholding both God's foreknowledge and man's free will. I now think the 2 notions can, indeed, work together without contradiction.

    In brief, I think that if Judas has chosen the honourable path, God's plan for Jesus to die could still be accomplished through other means.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Would you believe it about Judas if you "heard it" from God the Son? Jesus in His prayer just before Judas brought the "guard" to arrest Jesus said,
    Judas was an "elect of God" elected for one purpose, and that is to fulfill longstanding prophesy about the messiah! Jesus says that the Father gave those men to him, including Judas. It was for purpose that God elected Judas, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Ruth, etc., etc.

    According to prophesy, the one to betray Jesus had to be a close friend, or acquaintance. It cannot be a stranger.

    As for man's free will, and God's foreknowledge and election, they do work together very well.
     
  13. Andre

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    Hello Wes, Outwest (and others):

    I do agree that the scripture you posted strongly suggests that Judas was "pre-destined" to betray Jesus. I am no Bible scholar, but would be interested to know exactly what the word translated as "destined" would have meant.

    I do have a simple question, however. If Judas was pre-destined to betray Jesus (as importantly distinguished from being foreknown to betray Jesus) this seems to rob Judas of the "power to do otherwise" - to exercize free will in respect to moral choices. Without such free will, the notion of moral accountability seems unintelligible to me. I can stretch, but only so far. I maintain that, for human beings, the notion that one can be morally culpable or guilty for something one cannot avoid doing simply does not make sense.

    Are you agreeing that Judas was "forced" to betray Jesus (i.e. had no choice in the matter)? And if so, how do you respond to what I have written in the preceding paragraph?
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    Andre, if you will forget the idea that there is such a thing as "general election" in which All who are or will become believers are God's elect from the foundation of the world, you will then understand that God does have an elect and that elect includes all of the key players in scripture especially the Apostles, but also the prophets, the kings, John the baptist, etc. the general populous of the world are not "the elect" but are the ones who can come to belief in Jesus through the teachings of the elect, especially the apostles, as Jesus says in his prayer in John 17:20 "I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me.

    Scripture calls Judas the man of perdition, and perdition seems to carry as its description, "destruction". So God made Judas for destruction.

    So those who are God's elect are such for a purpose. and not just a general or blanket condition called salvation.
     
  15. johnp.

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    Hello Andre.
    Predestine means : to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand : foreordain especially by divine decree or eternal purpose
    You are commanded by God to believe it not understand it.
    Romans 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
    RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
    It's there. You must not question the truth you must ask the question to receive the kindest rebuke. "Who are you to talk back to God?"
    This is what He does. "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
    For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9:17-18.

    Pharaoh was created to be destroyed. "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" He does. :cool:

    "predestine." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (5 Jul. 2005).

    john.
     
  16. Jim1999

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    Free is not without impunity. I live in a free world, but I am not free to do a murder. There are consuquences.

    Man has a free will, but that free will is a sphere under the sovereign will of God. Man is born in sin and trespasses, and he can do no good except that which God permits and indeed causes to happen. Time and time again this is demonstrated in scripture as the evil nations deal with God's chosen people.

    Draw two circles. An outer circle and a smaller inner circle. The outer circle if God's sovereign will and the smaller inner circle, man's free will. It has a defined sphere of operation. Man cannot do good until, in His sovereign will, God acts upon man to do good, including the act of grace to receive the gift of salvation in Jesus Christ.

    Judas was a fallen man and was acting within his sphere. God did not send him to hell, but He did not elect him to heaven..I don't know why...I don't know why God saved me. Why would I choose a restricted life with what the world has to offer?

    On the blood of Christ. It was sufficient for all, but efficaceous for some; the elect of God.

    Why the universal call? We don't know who are the elect, hence we invite all, with the knowledge beforehand that all the elect will be saved.

    Foreknowledge is a natural attribute of an eternal God. Only man is confined by time. Foreknowledge is not the driving divine force, but rather a divine attribute of eternalness.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  17. Andre

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    Helloi johnp:

    I hear what you are saying but I just cannot go there - the notion that God creates beings who can feel the pain of eternal torment and yet have no mechanism to escape this torture - this cannot be the action of a loving God. Maybe we will just have to disagree....
     
  18. johnp.

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    Hello Andre.
    That's fine man no problem with me but should you ever ask that question then you will know the right doctrine.
    Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

    john.
     
  19. prophecynut

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    Exactly, "any" is referring to the elect.

    2 Pet. 3:9 NIV
    "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    The personal pronoun "you" refers to the antecedent "dear friends" in verse 8.

    8. "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends ."

    The same for 3:1
    " Dear friends this is now my second letter to you ."

    Peter's two letters focus on his dear friends.

    Who are his dear friends?

    The answer is 2 Pet. 1:1, Peter's dear friends are "those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours."

    The ELECT.

    God does not want anyone of the elect to perish but, everyone of the elect to come to repentance.
     
  20. Allison05

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    "For the foolishness of God is wiser than men..." 1 Corinthians 1:25

    "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23

    With that being said, we all deserve to go to hell. Through God's grace alone we are saved. We either get justice or mercy...we can't have both.

    "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins" Ephesians 1:15

    We are dead in our sins...A dead man cannot get up and walk, so what can a dead man do to save himself? Absolutely nothing with out the grace of God.
     

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