Featured Foresight Faith View versus the Corporate View of Election in Baptist life?

Skan, I completely agree that Romans 9 is speaking corporately, the Jews versus the Gentiles, but foreknowledge is still shown. God chose Jacob because he had faith and desired the promises made to his father Isaac, Esau did not believe the promises and sold his birthright for pottage. Now, I know that Jacob and Esau represent nations (Malachi), but the figure holds true, the descendants of Jacob (not all) generally believed and had faith in the true God, the descendants of Esau did not.

What is one of your favorite verses?

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

This is foreknowledge, Paul declared that the gospel would go to the Gentiles and they would hear it. This is speaking both corporately and of individuals, because not all Gentiles were willing to hear, only a few out of the many Gentiles hear and believe. So, these Gentiles that will hear is speaking of individuals.

It is similar to when Paul spoke of the true Jews, the seed of Abraham;

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Jews themselves actually held a corporate view like yourself and believed they were all saved simply because the were the descendants of Abraham, but it was only individuals, a few out of the many of Israel who had faith like Abraham who were the chosen or elect.

Both views are shown in scripture, not one.

 

I do not agree. Reformed theology teaches that God is calling His Church. While individual election certainly is part of God calling His Church, it is the Church, the bride of Christ, that is the object of God's calling. I do not have time this morning to cite the numerous Reformed authors that hold to this view, but I will be happy to do so this evening if requested.

There are neo-Calvinists that try to separate Calvinism from Reformed theology. Perhaps they buy into an individualistic view of election. But as for Reformed theology the emphasis has always been on the Church.

What your post does not address the "how." Either the individual's salvation is dependent on man's choice or God's calling (which includes the call, regeneration, and faith).

 

Does this not leave you with the question about those other nations who were not included AT FIRST in God's revelation? Durring the OT, God CHOSE to reveal himself to one group of individuals...but not to others...Does this not mean he chose not to reveal the way of salvation to all, but only to a select few?

 

This is in direct opposition to the truth of God;

 

1. Are you saying these verses are saying that God graciously looks over the sins of those non-jewish nations in the OT who did not turn to the one true God? If so, This sounds sketchy. If not, how does that statement address those nations to whom God did not reveal himself?

2. True

3. True, but it is generally assumed by both non-cal camps that the big argument against calvinism is that it does not give everyone the same chance to recieve Christ.

If you say God judges these OT nations based on their rejections his natural revelation...but saves those Israelites who respond to his specific revelation, which he withholds from those pagan nations...is this not a "choosing" of God to provide a way of salvation to one group of people, while not revealing the way of salvation to another group?

 

Interesting view Skan, and I must I admit I have speculated such a thing. There is scripture that does suggest God did not hold the Gentiles accountable for their sins.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Paul addressing the Athenians told them that they must not think of God as an idol, but the times of this ignorance God "winked at". Now they had full revelation and were commanded to repent and trust in Christ.

It is clear that God holds a person accountable according to their knowledge and revelation received.

Luk 18:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I will have to do more study, but I had noticed much scripture like this.

 

Free-willers and bondage of the will thinkers... What did Jesus actually accomplish at the cross in regards to Satan's defeat? How should we apply it to salvation and man's responsibility?

How r we to understand this biblically?

Also, does the sower and the seed way in on how we should be thinking about election and predestination?

 

I have not dismissed it, although I think the corporate view of election is more dangerous than the foreseen faith view. The foreseen faith view at least has God looking down the corridor of time to see who chooses Him. The corporate view of election has God limiting his omniscience because it necessarily teaches that God does not know who the Elect are.