Forfeiting Salvation versus Losing Salvation - What is the difference?

I would not have expressed my belief in the possibility of apostasy in the same manner that the person you responded to did. That being said, our continuing participation in the grace of God and the eternal life offered in Christ most certainly hinges on our "abiding in Christ" (John 15), on our "continu[ing] in the Faith" (Colossians 1), on our allowing "that which you have heard from the beginning to remain in you...." 1 John 2), on our "not neglect[ing] so great a salvation..." (Hebrews 2), on our keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith" (I Timothy 1)....

To "lose" something is to absent-mindedly misplace it. I do not accept that we can absent-mindedly forget about faith, about Jesus, or about salvation. Scripture CLEARLY bears out, however, that one can purposely REJECT (or forfeit) faith -- can (and have) purposely "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29).

So, are you saying that we can't have a conversation about the POSSIBILITY of forfeiting faith [apostasy] unless I agree with you that it cannot be forfeited??

JDale

 

Then why on earth would God include I John 1:8-10 in Scripture??

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."

Please understand that I don't advocate sin in the life of the believer -- nor do I believe it can or should typify the lifestyle of a disciple of Jesus -- but to deny that believers sin...That's not realistic. Nor is it Biblical. If it was true, we would neither need an advocate (other than at the moment of salvation) nor would we NEED His grace to continue!

JDale

 

I understand what you are saying and I don't believe we are free from sin. I just don't believe the children of God can commit the acts of sin that God said will not inherit the Kingdom such as adultery, homosexuality and such.

I know the scripture of John 1:8-10 and believe its talking to the outward man or flesh, but still do not believe it will sin a sin unto death, such as adultery. I would perfer to believe they had never been saved, but either way, I just don't believe that God's children look or do as the world.

There is another scripture just below John 1:8 and we have to be able to rightly divide.
1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

I am not claiming perfection here but always trying and working towards perfection until death with the help of the Holy Ghost and the Grace of God which is able to keep us.

I honestly cannot see myself after committing adultery, going back to the church as if I were a Christian. But I know there are many on here, probably most, who say we can't keep from doing those sins, but I beg to differ.

Believe me, they will eat me alive here in a few minutes, but this is how I believe the Children of God live after being saved and have the indwelling Holy Spirit, and the mind of Christ.

 

Once a child, you cannot lose nor forfeit that.

If you could commit true apostacy, you have more power than God, since you are now the hinge that is keeping your salvation. This is nothing more than works based salvation. In addition, "eternal life" in an oxymoron, as if it can be aposticized away, it was never "eternal life".

 

HP: Where does Scripture say that once a child you cannot forfeit or lose that standing?

To have a 'hope of eternal life' in fact does indicate that one can move away from the relationship that one had in the beginning of their salvation experience. The following passage indicates clearly the possibility of a change from a hope of eternal life to a forfeited relationship. That two letter word 'IF' is a word to consider carefully.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard,



Possibly the Scriptural words to use, in place of forfeit, is to be 'moved away from ones initial hope of eternal life.'

 

JD thank you for your comments and your Scripture. You have further proven my point for me. See the question again is not about whether someone can lose or forfeit their salvation. Call it what you want to. The question is what "salvation" can they lose and forfeit.

And what you have done is aligned yourself with the understand that one can purposefully reject Jesus as Savior. The problem is you have given Scripture that doesn't prove your point. You have given Scripture that doesn't have anything to do with eternal salvation.

Eternal salvation is believing in the substitutionary death and shed blood (because that is what is required by God - death and shed blood) of Jesus, the Lamb of God, on my behalf a sinner. If I believe that the Bible tells me I am saved. Not that I may be saved, or that I will be saved in the future if I continue to believe, but I am 100% no doubt about it saved. See Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9. There's just no getting around those two versus of Scripture, because the language that is used there doesn't allow any other interpretation.

So what we have here is a misunderstanding of what Scripture is teaching about eternal salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that salvation comes from God not the works of man. However in your argument you say that I must abibe in Christ. I must not neglect . . . I must continue in the faith . . . I must keep the faith . . . see the trend "I must."

Eternal salvation is not based on anything other than I must believe one time (Acts 16:30-31). Anything outside of that is works. Now folks can say it's not works. They can want it not to be works. They can say that salvation is of Christ, and Christ alone, but if anything enters the equation of eternal salvation other than faith/believe one time then that is a work.

Great question, and no that's not what I meant. What I meant was that its going to be awfully hard to have a converstation about losing salvation, if we can't even agree on what salvation is Hope that better clarifies what I was trying to say.

By the way I would just like to add that while Webdog and I don't agree on many things I would wholeheartedly agree with this statement here:

There is nowhere in Scripture, at least that I am aware of, that says a child can become a non-entity again, or anything that even remotely suggests that.

 

HP: If eternal salvation was a fly on your nose you would not see it. Notice I did not say ‘could not see it’ but ‘would not see it.’ I have heard of selective hearing before, but what the list is witnessing is selective seeing.

 

How in the world can you lose the standing of being your parents child?!? Once you are a child you cannot undo that! This is common sense!

 

HP: The relationship sustained by a parent to a child is physical and has nothing to do whatsoever with any obedience, disobedience or the acceptance or rejecting of being a child of the parent. The relationship that is sustained between a parent and a child of their physical DNA is that of necessity.

Are you prepared to say that the relationship that exists between a believer and God has nothing whatsoever to do with the acceptance or rejecting of salvations offer or sin or obedience? Are you prepared to state that the relationship that is sustained between God and the believer is one of like kind, i.e., of necessity?

 

DHK

Good point DHK.
Man is not more powerful than the Holy Spirit and if the Holy Spirit could be "Kicked out" he would not be perfect.

 

HP: This has to win the “ Worst Implication Award of the Year.” What a total mischaracterization of ones beliefs. Where is Tom Butler when we need him.

Certainly the Holy Spirit does not lead one into apostasy! There is not a Christian alive that would hold to such nonsense. Speaking of putting up a paper duck to shoot at!!

Just the same, neither does the Holy Spirit derive, force or coerce. The Holy Spirit leads and we must willingly follow. We can reject and spurn the leading of the Holy Spirit by choosing to allow our selfishness to influence the formation of our intents. Scripture is clear. We can indeed resist the Holy Spirit and in doing so run the danger of Him withdrawing His Spirit from us.

 

HP instead of making wild accusations, why don't you just prove my statement incorrect with Scripture. Take the Scripture that my quote is speaking of and show that it is in fact speaking contextually of eternal salvation. Unless you can do that, your statement is merely a not so very nice "opinion." And we all know about opinions

 

When we become a child of God, His Spirit indwells us. God is the one who uses the father / child relationship as an example. You could say this is our new spiritual DNA...Father / child.

Never said that. When we accept His free gift, we THEN become children
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

If God says it...it's good enough for me.

 

CC actually they do. If you look at the Greek langauage that is used that can be seen. In the Greek language as you know I am sure there is a way to make the verb a continual action. That is not the case in either of these two passages. Matter of fact Ephesians goes even futher in that the verb that is used carries the meaning of action "completed" in the past with the results carried out into the future. Salvation is a "completed" act as far as God is concerned, not a continual process as you are claiming.

Again no offense is intended, but if we let Scripture speak as it is written there is no way we can hold any other view other than eternal salvation is a one-time event.

You say there are other verses that say believing in a continual thing, which I agree with, but contextually we know that this believing has something to do with other than eternal salvation, because if it had to do with eternal salvation then the Bible would be contradicting itself in at least two places and that's an impossibility.

Again you can believe this if you want, but it doesn't make it so. Anything that is dependant upon "you" is a work. Again you are mixing the finished works of Christ, with your ability to continue to believe and hold fast and all those other things. That is a reliance on yourself. That is works.

You are right you could turn it around, but you would only be speaking half truths. Yes the Bible does say that we are to continue to believe. It does say we are to abide in Him. It does say we are to remain in Him, but the mistake you are making is that you are mixing contexts. Again if the contexts of abiding, continuing, remaining are eternal salvation then the Bible contradicts itself in Acts 16 and Ephesians 2 and Romans 4, because these verses clearly based on the languaged use say eternal salvation is not a life long process.

Again it is good that you see these warnings and conditions. There is a great realm of Christendom that doesn't see these in regard to believers, but write them off to the unsaved. But again the mistake you are making is that when you see salvation you are automatically coming to the conclusion that eternal salvation is the context, and that is simply not the case. Again, I know I sound like a broken record but . . ., if these warnings had to do with eternal salvation the Bible would clearly contradict itself which is an impossibility.

This has been my point from the very beginning. Any time the word salvation is used, it is not automatically talking about eternal salvaiton. There are different salvation contexts, and we must honore the way Scripture is written and stay within those contexts if we are going to truly understand what it is saying.

You are asking for speculation, and while I have an opinion, I don't know that it would help the conversation

As to your verse selection you have not shown the connection between falling away and eternal salvation. There is not one verse that you listed that makes that connection. All you have shown is that someone can fall away, which I agree with. What you are going to have to do is show how Scripture connects falling away with eternal salvation.

Again I applaud you for seeing the warnings and understanding that these are dealing with believers, but I would urge you to see the difference in contexts between eternal salvation and what these passages are actually referring to. And if you want to study this matter out I would be more than happy to point you to some excellent resource material.

 

Nothing was dealt with. God uses the parent child relationship...not me. You must not have read my last post. Read John 1:12

Agreed to an extent if you are referring to children having faith from birth. I believe infants are born "not guilty", though, so they are saved.

I don't believe the augustinian view of original sin...that we are born "guilty". I believe we are born with a sin nature, and will sin, but according to Romans 5:13, sin of an infants is covered under Christ's blood.

Faulty conclusion and philosophy.

Exactly. That's what the Holy Spirit indwells us for. The Gospel is presented in a commons sense fashion, though. Christ using terms like Father / child are to be understood in this very context, not reasoned away to support a theology.

 

Then I'm really confused as to how you can hold to a conditional eternal security belief To me there is no way around Ephesians 2:8-9 which says it is a completed action in the past with the results carrying out into the future. That makes it pretty cut and dry, with zero wiggle room.

Again I have applauded this and I see this too, but contextually it's not speaking of eternal salvation. It can't be and there are an enormous number of reasons why.

By the way it's not uncommon at all that people don't see anything other than eternal salvation in Scripture. The message of salvation has gone the way of traditions of men and the enemy has had a field day twisting God's Word.

I will PM you with some study material and you are more than welcome to PM me and email me for a more one-on-one conversation as you work through the material.