Forfeiting Salvation versus Losing Salvation - What is the difference?

The paremt child relationship is correct. A child cannot change his genetic makeup. He will always be the child of his father. That cannot change. It is not something that he can forefeit.
Jesus said you must be born again. When that happens, that spiritual bond between the father and his children cannot be broken. It cannot be forfeited or lost. It is forever. God will not break his promise. There are literally hundreds of verses that give evidence to this wonderful truth. I am afraid that those who belief that salvation can either be lost or forfeited put themselves in one of two positions:
1. they don't fully understand the doctrine the doctrine of salvation.
2. they use proof-texts that they don't understand can be explained in another context, for the Bible does not contradict itself.
3. It is more likely a combination of both.

 

WD:

We've covered this ground here and on other threads -- and DrFuss and I and others have soundly refuted the faulty reasoning of this argument.

One question though -- If you think I affirm a "works based salvation" do you then regard me as a heretic? I'm just saying.....?

JDale

 

JJ:

Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8,9 affirm the necessity for an initial time when one places their faith in Christ and is "saved." I have been "saved" since September 28, 1980. I am secure in that which I have entrusted to Him against that day (2 Timothy 1:12). This is a "know so" salvation (I John 5:13). I am not worried about "falling" or "losing" anything.

Still and yet, the Scriptures I mentioned in my previous post are clear. One cannot choose which scriptures to believe, and which to dismiss on a given subject. to interpret and apply scripture, you must integrate what the whole of scripture says about a given topic. I am right with you with regard to the meaning and strength of the statements in Acts 16:30-31, Ephesians 2:8,9, and even John 10 and Romans 8:35-39! But as a responsible student of Scripture with a consistent hermeneutic, I cannot dismiss or change the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-31; I Timothy 1:18,19, I John 2:24,25; Colossians 1:21-23, and many more.

When I used the term "must" in every case it was not about performing a WORK - it was about continuing in the FAITH, continuing in GRACE. To ignore those serious and very real warnings can imperil souls.


JDale

 

An allegory is an explanation, NOT evidence or proof.

JESUS is the "ONLY begotten of the Father."

When we are "Born Again" this is an allegory explaining our NEW SPIRITUAL LIFE -- our salvation. Positionally, we are "adopted" as children of God, not literally born in the fleshly sense. In other words, your mixing your metaphors, confusing the Biblical allegories.... You can only push the meaing so far.

JDale

 

Excellent post CC.

JDale

 

Wow you are really trying hard to hold on to this despite what Scripture says. If "you" have to continue to do anything salvation is not based on the finished works of Christ, but you. That's about as plain and simple as the matter can get. You can continue to deny that all you want to, but that is just the facts. You continuing . . . you abiding is just that . . . you.

I know that. And I have agreed with you many times that that is indeed the case. However, what you are doing is pitting Scripture against Scripture and saying that since I see these continual "present" tense verbs that must mean that I have to continue to do these things inspite of Scripture that clearly says 100% opposite.

This has been my whole point all along. There is no other way to interpret Acts 16:30-31 or Ephesians 2:8-9 differently. They say what they say. We can either believe that or we can just hide our head in the sand as if those passages don't exist. The fact is they do exist and they fly 100% in the face of eternal salvation being a life-long process. Again there is just simply no way of getting around that.

So what we must do then is ask the question okay well what salvation is being discussed in these "present" tense cases, because according to Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9 they can't be talking about eternal salvaiton or I will have a Scripture contradiction and that's impossible.

Excellent question!

Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us that we are saved by grace through faith. So the question is saved by faith in what. Well what does God require for eternal salvation? Death and shed blood. That is the requirement, which can be seen throughout the OT and NT. So since Christ is The Sacrifice it is faith in His substitutionary death and shed blood on my behalf a sinner. If I believe He died and shed His blood in my place then I am saved. And that is the end of eternal salvation as far as God is concerned, because God said in the same Ephesians passage that it was a "completed" event.

I could add more, but that should suffice.

Not according to Scripture you couldn't. Faith in the Substitute is all that is required.

Again the context of the repentance passages are clearly not eternal salvation. And just for the sake of argument let's just say that repentance is necessary for eternal salvation, can you please show me that teaching in the OT, because everything you find in the NT can be found in the OT by way of type or shadow.

So now we are getting in Lordship salvation. I was really unaware that there were in Lordship salvation folks that believed someone could forfeit and/or lose their salvation. That's a new one on me. Lordship comes AFTER eternal salvation is already taken care of. That's the only time it can come into play.

Becuase obedience to the Master has to do with works. Works NEVER play a picture in eternal salvation not before, not during, not after. NEVER (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Agreed, but doesn't prove your stance.

There is no Scriptural support for these two statements at all. And quite the contrary is taught.

That is a true statement.

But here's the bottom line there is only one right and one wrong. Either Scripture backs up your point and I'm full of hooey or vice versa So I would still like to know how you can say eternal salvation is a lifelong process when I have given you two verses of Scripture that clearly contradict that. How do you interpret those two texts to make it fit in your theology?

 

JD that would be an okay argument if Scripture backed it up, but it doesn't. Ephesians 2:8-9 says eternal salvaiton is a completed act. It's a done deal. The results of that act carry out into the future. It doesn't say until such an such happens and then it's revoked. It's a done deal. We can either believe that or not.

And the same can be said of Acts 16:30-31. The direct question was asked and a direct answer given. There was nothing that Paul said that would indicate that this salvation could be foreited or lost. If that was the case don't you think he would have told the jailor and his family. Yet we have no indication whatsoever that they were told that.

That's why I keep bringing up Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9, because CC nor yourself has dealt with these. You tried to above, but again Scripture shoots down your notion.

That's why we have to look at other Scripture in Light of Scripture. Salvation passages must be looked at in Light of what Acts 16:30-31, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4 tell us about eternal salvation.

But by the vary position that you hold you are changing the meaning of those verses. Those verses don't have anything to do with eternal salvation by context, because it would contradict the two that I have been trying to get you all to deal with. That contradiction can not be worked around. It is so clear in its meaning that other texts must be looked at in Light of those texts.

Now we are finally getting somehwere. I completely agree with you that these are serious, real warnings that must be dealt with by believers. And you have hit the whole subject on the head. These warnings deal with a person's soul. Eternal salvation is in regard to a person's spirit.

See therein lies the difference. The salvation of the spirit is a done deal once a person believes on the Substitute. The salvation of the soul is then what comes into play. And it is the salvation of the soul that can be forfeited or lost. The salvation of the spirit deals with eternity. The salvation of the soul deals with the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

If you could like to study this matter out I would be more than happy to point you to some resource material! I pray you will see the difference.

 

I'm sorry, John 1:12 is not allegorical in the least. Jesus said you do this...you become this. Period. Numerous other Scriptures in both the OT and NT calling those who are His, "children".

If you can maintain your salvation yourself, it's works based. How can it be anything but? Do you deny that we are called children, and sons of God?

 

Well there are plenty, but just let me give you one to chew on:
1Th 5:23 - Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There are plenty more, but that should suffice.

Well we are created in the image of God, and God is a Triune Unity, so we are also tri-part beings. We have a body, soul and spirit.

Well Scripture makes a big deal out of the two being separate, so I would hardly call it immaterial, but you can call it that if you like.

You could say that if you wanted to, but it's not true. The Bible is not left to man's interpretation. We either accept what it says are we fiddle with the text until we get what we like. I have not interpreted anything, I am merely restating what the text says, and I happen to agree with what the text says. The text says it is a completed act that happened in the past with the results carried out into the future. There is no room for interpretation. It simply is what it is, and we can believe it or we can do something else. I will continue to believe what it says and compare Scripture with Scripture.

You are right, but when comparing Scripture with Scripture you have to compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. You are trying to compare apples with oranges and there is no comparing there, because they are not talking about the same thing. I really don't know how this could be any clearer. You are saying it is a lifelong process, when the verses I have given say it is not. There is no comparing that. Because if you do you have a clear contradiction whether you want to admit it or not.

They aren't unclear when you have the right defintion of salvation. When they become unclear is when you try to make them talk about eternal salvation. It becomes unclear again because of the clear contradiction that creates with the two Scriptures I have given you.

Now to me this conversation has basically ran its course. You seem set on continuing down the path you are walking. And there's nothing I can do about that. But in defense of your own belief I would think that you would be able to deal with the at least "seeming" contradiction between your lifelong process of salvation and the one-time event of the two texts I gave. So can you give me an explanation how those two diametrically oppossed views can actually being talking about the same thing, because I don't see it.

I'll look forward to your explanation, otherwise I don't see what good it will do to continue.

 

Excellent point sir!

In Christ,

Bob

 

2 Tim 2[/b]
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 [b]If we endure, we will also reign with Him; [b]If we deny[/b] Him, He also [b]will deny us;[/b]
13 [b]If we are faithless[/b], He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.


Soul bound by sin and under the condemnation of death

James 5
19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back[/b], let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."


Forgiveness revoked –

Matt 18 b]Forgiveness Revoked!
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''


Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?


Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come

 

Turned over to Satan – in the shipwreck of faith

1Tim 1
18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them[/b] you fight the good fight,
19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be [b]taught not to blaspheme.

Cast out for unbelief - yet able to graft them in again

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

Bob I see you still love your color coded messages Maybe you can put the verse or the portion of the verse that says anything about eternal salvation lost or forfeited in a nice oh let's say crimson color. I'm kind of partial to the Sooners Or maybe a little creme (well maybe not - that's hard to read :laugh: ).

Again I wish someone that holds this position can show me where any of these verses are talking about eternal salvation, because none of them say that. None of them even remotely alude to that.

 

HP: Now there is a clear example of a show of wisdom, coming even from the mouth of a Texan!!
What was that verse about seeing even your enemies being at peace with you? :laugh: :thumbs:

 

Only a Texan by residence. I was born and raised a Sooner from the right side (North for those folks that don't know which side it is :laugh of the Red River

 

Brother Bob and DHK have offered appropriate insights into understanding "falling away" and "apostasy."

Suffice it to say that in the scripture mentioned by Amy, 1 Timothy 4:1, early on in this thread, the appropriate insight is that "departing the faith" or "falling away" should be translated "to draw back from" the faith. Once having heard, unbelievers "draw back from" the Good News, seeking their own way, or returning to Judaism, or joining some other movement. Amy is right on in these forums, quite knowledgeable spiritually. The insight that I offer in no way detracts from that. I simply point out that with so many scriptures to the contrary (see Brother Bob and DHK's comments), one cannot, must not conclude that a Christian can lose, fall away from, forfeit, or otherwise apostatize out of the Christian faith. We don't sustain the relationship, He does. One who drifts away from the faith, whether 10% or 100%, is certainly subject to the judgment of Christ in this life (1 Corinthians 5:5; see also Romans 3:19-26), escaping the final judgment "as if by fire." Remember that we were once lost in sin. We were called to repentance, to change our mind about salvation. Those lost sinners who did were then found in His Righteousness. Nothing can change that. Nothing changes our relationship to God, positionally. Daily sins grieve Him .. we lose fellowship .. we read 1 John 1:9 .. His promise is true .. not once in that process did a loss of salvation come into view.

The only other view of Apostasy is in the end times, during Tribulation, and during the 1,000 year reign. In both cases, again, there is a drawing back from the clear promises of God concerning eternal life. The image I get is of a car blowing through a siderail on a high mountain road. The driver sees only cloud cover, below. Jesus Christ appears, saying "take my hand." The driver responds, "No, if I see a tree branch -- I will grab hold of that."

 

Hi DQ,
I hope I haven't given the impression that I think one can lose their salvation. I believe I am quite safe in the Savior's hands. My main question was about apostasy. The warnings written about it were addressed to the church, which makes me wonder...(not always a good thing :laugh: ) if we (the church) are secure in our salvation, why the warnings? It doesn't make sense to me that unbelievers are being warned as they have never been in the faith to begin with, so how could they fall away? I have heard of people abandoning the faith because they became angry with God over unanswered prayer or some such. Maybe they were never saved at all, maybe the seed never took root, I don't know. I believe God keeps me safe in His care through the power of His Spirit within in me, so I'm a bit confused. I must admit I don't know everthing yet. :laugh: