Forfeiting Salvation versus Losing Salvation - What is the difference?

I have no idea. If the Bible says they're false, then they are.

Now, what was the question??? Oh yes. Apostasy. What is it?

 

HP: Could apostasy be falling to the point that the Holy Spirit withdraws Himself from a person and at that point all hope is lost forever?

 

Apostasy is defined as a total and complete desertion of the faith. I can see a difference between one falling into sin, getting discouraged for a time, and one just deserting and denouncing the faith altogether. How about you?

 

Yes, I can see the difference in that too. I think we all have gone through times in our lives when we have been discouraged. Can a true (for lack of a better word) Christian denounce their faith? Would God remove His Spirit from a person for any reason? Could a person denounce their faith while the Spirit is present in them? Or are we talking about people who never really committed themselves to Christ and when things got tough, they bailed? Maybe these people never had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

 

HP: The question in my mind is , from whose perspective are we looking from? If we are trying to look from God’s…..we have a distinct problem. We are not God and cannot see the beginning from the end. That limits us to our finite perspective, and from that perspective I believe Scripture clearly warns us that due to our finite perspective and our walk by faith, which of a necessity limits our understanding to the realm of possibilities, we need to take heed lest we fall. We need to heed the warnings that sin is a cancer of the soul and will lead us on a path away from God. Sin can deceive us into thinking we have a relationship with the Father, when in fact we are walking down a path away from God and leading to destruction.

Yes, Scripture informs us that the possibility exists that God can in fact remove His Spirit from man, leaving that man without hope for eternity. God alone knows when that will happen. Our duty is to keep short accounts, being quick to repent and to turn ourselves to Him in repentance ad obedience.

Unless the Holy Spirit has completely and finally left the individual, everyman, including the unsaved, receive light from the Holy Spirit via their conscience. If a Christian denounces the faith, it is evident that they have departed from the faith. I again see a difference, at least at the start of departing, in departing by way of sin, and departing by way of openly denouncing of the faith. Sin can be very deceitful. An open denouncement of the faith is a high-handed committal of the will to reject God and His Word.

The problem with sin, that the believer is warned about in Scripture, is departing from the faith may just start with one sin. If left unrepented of, it will develop into more and more acts of rebellion, to a point, much like boiling a live frog in a pan, will overtake our wills to the point that one will find themselves rejected by God and His Holy Spirit withdrawn.

I believe all sin in a believer’s life has that potential. Sin is a contagion that cannot be measured in finite terms. It grows and festers and will not stop until God stops it eternally in the lake of fire. That is sure to happen apart from sincere repentance, faith, and continued obedience until the end. Every believer remains in a battle for their eternal destiny until we stand before Him at the judgment. It is not over till it is over.

 

HP:

I have seen the outward change in a person who has accepted Christ as Savior, but I have never seen the opposite. I've never seen someone who claimed to be saved, loved the Lord and walk the Christian walk who turned away from God and rejected Him. Have you?

 

I think it is easier to look at this from the view point of "apostate churches." We have many apostate churches around--the unitarian church just being one of them. There are many churches that have departed from the faith. They no longer hold to the basic truths of the Bible; no longer preach the gospel; deny the fundamentals of the faith; etc. They are apostate.

Northern Africa used to be a lighthouse for Christianity. Alexandria, at one time used to be one of the centers of Christianity. Remember the Ethiopian Eunuch who took the gospel back to his native land. The gospel blossomed their.
But slowly these Arican nations rejected the truth that they were taught.
Professing themselves to be wise. they became fools:

Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up...

And now the result is that true Christianity has all been but snuffed out in those lands Islam being the religion that has completely taken over. The consequence of rejecting Christ is great.

Where did things go wrong? Perhaps it was with Origen and the famous school at Alexandria. It was a center of leaning but it also was a center of learning that was based in Greek philosophy. Origen was eventually declared a heretic. There is great doubt if Origen was ever saved in the first place. Many of his followers therefore would not have been saved. The school itself became apstate. Apostasy reigned. There was a departure from the faith, that was previously taught.
If we call Origen an apostate, it doesn't mean he was a believer. It simply means that he knew the truth. He was taught the truth. But he rejected it. He turned from it. He apostasized. He never was saved in the first place. He was a heretic. Having known the truth he turned from and rejected it. This man was not only a heretic but an apostate. He knew the truths of the faith, and rejected them.
This will never happen to one who is actually born again, of whom the Holy Spirit dwells within. True beleivers don't apostasize. They grow in the nurture and adomonition of the Lord. There is constant change in their life. There is salvation, sanctification, and glorification. Old things are passed away, and all things are become new. His life is one of progress (generally speaking). It is one of change for the good. He doesn't retrogress but progresess in his Christian life. I don't believe that a true Christian can apostasize.

 

HP: The point I see is that churches are made up of individuals and the beliefs of individuals. Certainly there are churches that have been formed entirely destitute of the truth, and in a sense are apostate from the start, yet there would be no reason to warn them of the ‘possibility’ of turning from the faith if in fact they had never been part of the faith. They stand only to be rebuked and to be admonished to come to the light, not warned of falling away from it.

I have never read where Christ warned those not following Him of turning from the faith. He rebuked them sharply, sometimes calling them the children of the devil, admonishing them to repent and to come to the faith. On the other hand, I see numerous passages where Christ and the Apostles were addressing believers to be steadfast, utilize caution, be careful, pay attention, lest through the deceitfulness of sin they be allured into complacency and sunsequent deception, thinking themselves to be in a right relationship with God, when in fact they have turned to their own way once again.

Take the following passage for instance. Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

I hear the following question raised all the time. (most often when it should not be) “Who is being addressed?” Here is one time I would ask the same question. I ask you, who is Paul calling 'brethren?' If I take the position you ae suggesting, I have to say that brethren are those that have never even come to know the Lord. What kind of wild interpretations would we drum up using such notions to guide us into the meaning of other texts using the word ‘brethren?’

This is only one of the many passages of clear warnings to the believer.

 

HP: First, we are not God as you well know. We cannot see into the hearts of man. We can only make our judgments based upon what we see and hear. I believe many within the church have long since fallen into sin and subsequent deception, thinking themselves to be wise, when in fact they are not, thinking themselves to be in a right relationship with God, when in fact they are far from it.

Regardless of what I have witnessed or whether or not what I believe I have seen is in fact accurate, in no way takes away or diminishes the Scriptural truth that one can indeed be a partaker of the truth, yet fall into sin and perish as an evil doer. Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Scripture informs us that in the latter days, many shall depart from the faith. Something will change in those days. We have always seen many that have never came to the light having had the opportunity to repent and believe, but in the last days, Scripture tells us that many of those that have came to the light and received the gift of salvation will depart from the faith, having made shipwreck of it.

If you have never seen one depart from the faith as a believer, and live long enough to witness the last days, I believe you will also be asking even as Scripture asks, will there be faith upon the earth when He returns again?

I for one believe we are indeed in the last days. We should be warned individually, that is you and I included, "See that we remain steadfast in obedience, walking circumspectly in daily obedience, that we be not deceived through the deceitfulness of sin and do despite the grace that has been granted to us." IF we remain steadfast unto the end, there is indeed a crown of righteousness awaiting our homecoming into His glorious kingdom. It is my hope and prayer that we indeed will be found worthy to witness that coronation day and be one of the saints that will cast our crowns at His glorious feet!!

 

Peter, denying the Lord three times would have been considered apostasy.

 

I have...myself. You probably do all the time, but in a worldly state, you wouldn't be able to tell a Christian from an unbeliever. I'm sure if you walked into Sodom and Gammorah, you would have never been able to tell the Lot was righteous.

 

The facinating thing is that God is not only that this shows salvation revoked - it also shows that "God is able to graft them back in again"!!

 

This was kind of my point. Only God knows for sure who the true believers are. Although, I have a hard time understanding why someone would pretent to be a believer. In a lot of ways, I am very naive. I have never understood why people go to church who are not really committed to and in love with Jesus. But, I know that it happens. I go to church to worship my Lord and Savior, whom I love with all my heart. Why else would I be there? Yet, it seems some are there for other reasons.

There are many scriptures that warn against falling away from the faith, and these are addressed to the brethren. Like HP said, the brethren are always believers. So, it seems these warnings are addressed to believers. On the other hand, there are many, many sciptures that assure the believer that they can never lose their salvation and they are safe in the hands of Christ. I am trying to bring these scriptures together, which I believe is how we rightly divide the word and come to the truth. Does that make any sense?

Are you saying that the people the Bible speaks of as apostate were really not true believers in the first place?

 

In Matt 18 believers are warned against the REAL problem of forgiveness revoked.

In John 15 believers are warned against the REAL problem of not persevering - of being taken OUT of the vine of Christ - dead and burned in the fire.

In Romans 11 believers are warned that they stand only by their FAITH and that they should FEAR "for if He did not spare them NEITHER will he spare YOU".

God says that once we are IN Christ no one ELSE may take us away - but never does God say "no matter that you choose to be unfaithful you are saved anyway". For that argument you need "man-made tradition". Instead God says in Romans 2 "it is not the hearers but the DOERS that are JUSTIFIED"

So there are only two solutions.

A. Either you cling to OSAS by denying that salvation has ever happened for anyone that does not actually persevere firm until the end. (This invalidating assurance)

B. You admit that OSAS is a false doctrine and so you still hold to the Bible truth on the perseverance of the saints while admitting to the texts mentioned above.

There are no other solutions that admit to the truth of Perseverance ANd to the truth of the texts listed above.

 

Amy I thank God that you are able to see and understand this Truth of Scripture. Yes there are warnings and yes they are given to believers. Again I don't know if you have kept up with this thread or not, but the question is what "faith" and what "salvation" is contextually being talked about.

There are a few on here (BobRyan, CC and JDale) that are arguing that the "faith" and "salvation" being spoken of are eternal salvation, and as such one is able to forfeit or lose their salvation. However, neither of the three have been able to show with Scripture that eternal salvation is the context.

So do you think eternal salvation is the context of these passages? And if you do can you show how contextually eternal salvation is the context.

I contend that Scripture is speaking about a different faith and a different salvation other than eternal salvation, because of a number of differnt factors, which I have already laid out, but I would be interested to read your take on the matter.

 

This isn't true for a number of different reasons.

 

If you can lose God's Salvation....you never had it in the first place. The only people on this board that promote ones losing Salvation are the SDA's. That's not the only thing they are really messed up on!

 

That's not true either. There is one SDA person that has participated, but there have been other non-SDA folks participating that have said one can lose and/or forfeit their eternal salvaiton.

 

You have made yourself the exception to "no man" can pluck you from the Father's hand. Those who think they can go against what Scripture says must believe themselves to be sovereign over God in that aspect.