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forgive us our trespasses

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by tinytim, May 10, 2004.

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  1. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    In the so-called "Lord's Prayer" What version has the line, "and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those that trespass against us?"

    I had heard that it from an earlier english version than the KJV 1611. But I don't remeber which one.
    I was thinking Tyndale. Or it my be Wycliffe.

    And on a side issue, are there any KJVOs that use this line instead of what the KJV uses, "our debts as we forgive our debtors"?

    If so do you feel guilty quoting scripture that is not in the KJV format.
     
    #1 tinytim, May 10, 2004
  2. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    The Greek terminology means "a wrongdoing against another". In the proper context, debts and tresspasses are just fine. So is wrongdoing, I suppose.
     
    #2 Johnv, May 10, 2004
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Huh?
    Sins, indebted = used in the AV1611
     
    #3 Dr. Bob, May 10, 2004
  4. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    Hi TinyTim,

    The term "trespasses" is from the Book of Common Prayer, originally written by the first Protestant Archbishop of Cantebury, Thomas Cranmer. This is the official order of service for the Church of England (it conatins prayers, readings, Psalms, etc.), but is rarely used now in the evangelical Anglican churches (yes, there really IS such a thing as an evangelical Anglican in this country!), and tends to be used in the Anglo-Catholic churches because it sounds old-fahioned (or at least, that's the only reason I can see why they'd use a very Protestant service book).
     
    #4 Bartholomew, May 10, 2004
  5. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    To me, a "trespass" could incur a "debt" especially if the "trespass" is against GOD. I've heard both terms used in various recitations of the Lord's prayer my whole life.

    BTW, TT, how's your son?
     
    #5 robycop3, May 10, 2004
  6. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Thanks you all, and Roby, Isaac is doing fine. He has been seizure free for almost 3 wks. Wed. will be 3 wks. They took him off one med. and incresed his other one. He has been having mood swings though, but that's expected. His MRIs came back great, and his Dr even taught us how to read one. They did find some unusual spikes in his EEG readings. and explained it as sometimes a seizure may start, and he may feel whatever it is he feels right before he has one, but his meds. kick in in time to stop it before it actually registers as a seizure. All this happens within 2 seconds. In order for a spike to be considered a seizure on a EEG it has to go at least 3 seconds. Or at least that's the way I understood it.

    Thank you all for your prayers.

    Now back from the break and on to debating.
    Does anyone have a Bible older than 1611 that uses the words trespasses?

    BTW Thanks Dr. Bob, there is nothing like the authoritative 1611. But with all them "v's" in there when I read it out loud I sounded like the russian dude on Star Trek.
    "Yes Captain ve vill get back to Earth."
     
    #6 tinytim, May 11, 2004
  7. mesly

    mesly Member

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    I think this may answer your question about which bible version was used, although I cannot seem to find it online to verify it. Since I grew up in an Episcipal church, we used to say "trespasses" in our reciting of the "Lord's Prayer". I happened to have an old Book of Common Prayer and sure enough, it is in there. Here is a quote about which version the Book of Common Prayer (BCP) used:

    The above was taken from the following website: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1559/BCP_1559.htm

    This brings up an interesting question: Why did the very same church that brought us the KJV, not update their prayer book - which for many Anglicans is used more than the bible? After all, if the KJV was God's preserved word in english, then why not update the BCP with it? Kind of makes you think that they didn't think it was the only version worth using . . . ;)
     
    #7 mesly, May 11, 2004
  8. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    So it was the Great Bible?
    I wonder how many KJVOs actually quote it using "trespasses"?
     
    #8 tinytim, May 12, 2004
  9. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    mesly said:

    For the same reason that the Roman Church preserved Jerome's translation of the Psalms from the Greek, despite his insistence on translating from the Hebrew -- beauty and familiarity of language.

    The "trespasses" reading goes back to Tyndale and was adopted by Coverdale in the Great Bible.
     
    #9 rsr, May 12, 2004
  10. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    Matthew has it, Matt. 6:12, 'forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors."
    Then Jesus in Matt. 6:14 uses, "for if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
    This could be where the mix up comes from.
    I used to be a member of a twelve step group and at the end of the meeting it was common to recite the "Lord's Prayer". We commonly used trespasses instead of debts.
    Interesting. "Things that make you go hmmmmm.
    Jim
     
    #10 av1611jim, May 12, 2004
  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    As a kid I remember learning that line in catechism in the RCC.
     
    #11 gb93433, May 12, 2004
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I grew up with "debts" but now in my wedding cermonies, I always use "trespasses".

    Only a few old liners would use "debt" while every religious person (like Catholic, Protestant, etc) would use "trespass".
     
    #12 Dr. Bob, May 12, 2004
  13. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    Not here in Pennsylvania Dutch country. The main PA German denominations (besides the Mennonites) are Lutheran and Reformed. Lutherans use "trepasses" and Reformed use "debts".
     
    #13 Pennsylvania Jim, May 12, 2004
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    It's a matter of semantics. We now generally view 'trespass' as an unlawful entry into the property of another, while it's only used occasionally now for sin, or a violation of moral or religious ethics. However, the latter IS a valid definition of 'trespass'.

    And 'debt' means 'obligation' as well as 'something owed'. And it once meant'sin'as well as those other meanings!

    Whether we say, 'sins, trespasses, or debts' isn't important. What IS important is that we THINK about the words & meaning of the prayer as we read or recite it! Make it a PRAYER, not a saying!
     
    #14 robycop3, May 13, 2004
  15. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    I agree, Roby, But I just find it somewhat amazing that a phrase that was in one of the first English translations is still being used even though the KJV is so widely used. Trespasses and debts mean the same thing, so it is no biggie, but when I found out that our church (which uses "trespasses") is actually quoting from a version older than 1611!!! how cool is that.

    i also wonder how many other KJV only churches quote this same thing even though it is not in the KJV.
     
    #15 tinytim, May 14, 2004
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