Formal Debate Proposed

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by DanielFive, Jun 15, 2003.

  1. DanielFive

    DanielFive
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    In light of the of the obvious difference in the Catholic and Protestant views on Justification (see Catholic or Protestant thread) I propose that we try to set up a formal debate on the subject of Justification.

    Bob Ryan has agreed to debate any Catholic on the subject, Kathryn being the most obvious candidate since she disagreed with Bob's answers on all ten of the questions asked on the thread. However, if Kathryn is for any reason unwilling to debate with Bob, he has agreed to debate any of our catholic members. (eg.Carson)

    There are, of course, rules for a formal debate on BB.

    The following rules were suggested on another forum a few weeks ago.


    Now all that remains is for someone to take up the Catholic side of the debate. We must also ask the moderators on the BB if one of them will be willing to moderate the debate.

    Any takers?
     
  2. Kathryn

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    I am not a debater. I am an average cradle Catholic, defending my faith in Jesus Christ. I also suspect no matter how good a debate was to be put on, the anti-Catholics will declare the Catholic the loser. The testing was biased and rigged in its evaluation (no category for Justification by Grace) and the debate most likely would be also. I would be surprised if any Catholic here would trust to be treated fairly.

    God Bless
     
  3. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    Edna,

    I find it intersting that you would think Bob is an acceptable candidate for the Protestant side. He does not hold to Sola Scriptura (if he is a good SDA) because he holds to scripture + Ellen G. White. He (if he is a good SDA) is definitely on the legalist side of Protestantism, he believes in soul sleep, believes you MUST worship on Saturday or your violating the commandements, and if he is like most SDA's I know (including a couple who have been on this board) the trinity is up for debate.

    From CRI

    "http://www.equip.org/free/CP0602.htm"

    Here is another article on them:


    http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/s18.html

    "Whether the Seventh-day Adventists are a sect, a cult or a denomination is a matter of intense controversy. Some evangelical scholars have insisted they that are cultic. Others have claimed that they are not. Some scholars have reviewed the institutional developments of the Seventh-day Adventists and asked whether this onetime sect has now become a denomination. "

    In the final anlysis it matters little on this board as long as they are not Catholic.

    Blessings
     
  4. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    I agree with thess wholeheartedly. Bob believes in keeping the old testament laws and wouldnt be one to debate justification.
     
  5. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    I would be happy to assist if my services are required.


    Hello Kathryn -

    The nature of a formal debate is that the "peanut gallery" is eliminated, bringing the discussion down to two participants. By structuring the format in this way, each participant has an equal chance of presenting their case.

    The only formal debate to ever occur on this board was between Post-it, a moderate, left-wing Baptist and David Gould, a bright, articulate atheist, over the Existence of God. The debate was moderated by me, a moderately conservative Southern Baptist. I think that all participants felt that this unjudged dialogue was handled in a fair, impartial manner. In fact, David (the atheist), wrote me toward the end of the debate and said that he appreciated the effort and the handling of the discussion.

    If the debate were to be judged, the judges would be selected from as wide a cross-section of this board as we coulod muster. It would be done as fairly as humanly and technically possible. Nothing would be proven by impartial treatment. We would have nothing to gain.

    It's the same logic I use in being so light handed in this forum. The cry of "partiality" sometimes arises from this forum, but over all I think you will agree that everyone has their chance to speak their mind without the fear of being edited, excepting, of course, bad behavior.

    The moderator in a formal debate is not really a participant. He is merely a time keeper / post submitter / rule guardian / code editor. It is not the same function as one who moderates these "real time" discussions.

    I believe that most of us here (hopefully) are more concerned with seeking the Truth than we are conforming to a philosophical school. Bear in mind that if such a debate occured, Bob Ryan is Seventh-day Adventist, his opponent would be Catholic and the moderator would be Baptist.

    A study of the concept of Justification would be of great benefit to the board, in my humble opinion.
     
  6. DanielFive

    DanielFive
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    Thessalonian,

    The debate is on Justification, nothing else. I am well aware that Bob is a SDA and have disagreed with him more than once about it. However since Bob was the person who posted the 10 correct answers on the earlier thread it seems to me that he holds correct views on the doctrine in question. I'm sure that Bob would stick to the matter at hand and would not seek to use the debate to speak about SDA.

    God Bless

    Enda

    Ps Knowing Bob, I'm sure he'd be happy to debate you on any other topic at a later date.
     
  7. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    Defending a position on Justification by use of the Law is a contradiction in terms.

    Galatians 3:11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

    If* Justification through the Law were, however, Mr. Ryan's position, it would add a new dimension to the parallel public discussion in that both positions would be seeking Justification through an addition to faith.

    * Bob, I am not attempting to define your position for you, but, rather, I am speaking hypothetically.
     
  8. DanielFive

    DanielFive
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    I agree completely Clint, thanks for offering your services.

    I really hope that Kathryn or one of our other catholic friends will agree to participate.

    I think this would be an opportunity for the catholic members to fully explain 'justification by grace', it may not have been included in the original test but I would have thought that the debate would offer the ideal opportunity to deal with the subject.

    Our catholic members have stated in the past that they come to the BB to defend their faith against non-catholics. Why would they ignore this ideal opportunity to do so?

    Carson? Kathryn?

    God Bless

    Enda
     
  9. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    Iam sure that Bob Ryan's position on the old testaments laws as an SDA are the same as the Roman Catholics on the sanctifying graces. They are not necessary for salvation and have nothing to do with justification. Correct?
     
  10. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    I find it interesting that God established the Law as the means by which man could be "Justified" through obedience of the law, (disobedience being man's downfall). Yet we, who are Justified by Jesus' obedience of the Law, are so willing to throw out the law because God gave us His only begotten Son to complete or Fulfill that law, thereby becoming our Justification.

    God did not throw out the law, nor did Jesus negate the law. We still recognize sin for what it is in accordance with the law. Remember the "Thou Shall Not's? Well they still exist! We are reminded of them throughout our civil laws! If we disobey them, regardless of what we believe about Jesus, Grace, Atonement, etc., we are still subject to the consequences of those laws.

    So, Let's not hear any more of this trash talk about the Law of God no longer applying to mankind. The Law remains, what you do with it is entirely up to you!
     
  11. DanielFive

    DanielFive
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    I'll sound the bell again, any Catholic members ready to step up to the mark?

    Surely you would agree that it would benefit us all, as well as those who visit the forum, to see a debate which is carried out in the right spirit without name calling and insults.

    If you feel this is a debate that you cannot win please say so.

    Thanks

    Enda
     
  12. Ps104_33

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    I am mainly referring to the Jewish ceremonial laws found in the Torah. You dont keep all those in order to get to heaven do you?
     
  13. GraceSaves

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    edna,

    I woulds step up on a different debate. I'm simply not familiar enough yet with the minute differences expressed between the justification/sanctification arguements to express either view properly.

    If you have another topic sometime that you want to put forward for a debate, I'd be more willing.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  14. BobRyan

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    I appreciate that Clint.

    My position in a debate with the common Catholic application would be the Romans 3:28 position "we maintain that man is justified by faith Apart from the works of the Law" as well as the Romans

    And to a lesser extent -- Rom 3:20 "By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified".

    Although - my guess is that many Catholics would argue in favor of those same texts at one level and against them at another level.

    However if I were debating someone on the opposite end of that fence - I would probably be taking the Romans 2:11-16 and Jame 2:24 position.

    Basically the Bible clearly identifies the ditches on both sides of that narrow road and all of Christianity seems to have fallen into one or the other.
    :D

    To add to Kathryn's post "I am a cradle Adventist and though I have no formal religious training aside from church school basic Bible classes" I enjoy exchanging views with Christians my own denomination as well as Christians of other Christian denominations such as Baptist and Catholic.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. DanielFive

    DanielFive
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    Thanks Grant, I'll keep that in mind. The name is Enda by the way.

    God Bless

    Enda
     
  16. GraceSaves

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    Just a minor slip of the finger. ;)

    God bless you,

    Grant
     
  17. DanielFive

    DanielFive
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    And the knife [​IMG]

    God Bless

    Bro Enda
     
  18. Born Again Catholic

    Born Again Catholic
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  19. D28guy

    D28guy
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    I resemble that remark! [​IMG]

    ...I mean I RESENT that remark! I aint no peanut! :D I'm a FULL GROWN nut!

    Mike, sinking back into "lurk" mode
     
  20. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    The debate is pointless then! Catholics don't say that the works of the law justify anyone.

    I am putting my brief explanation of the supposed contradiction between James and Paul in the "Catholic or Protestant ? : Take the Test" thread.

    [ June 17, 2003, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     

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