Four Soils

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Apr 6, 2009.

  1. steaver

    steaver
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    Luke 8:12-15

    (12)"Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."

    (13)"They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

    (14)"And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection."

    (15)"But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience."

    I have heard different sermons on this issue. Some say only the fourth soil is born again. Some say the last two are born again. Some say only the first is unregenerated.

    What do you think and WHY?

    1) seems very clear, they never believed and never were saved (born of God)

    2) says they have "no root", to me this means they were not born again, but they "believed for awhile", is this then merely an intellectual decision? I believe it is because of the example of John 8:31-32 which states;

    "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

    Here these Jews are said to have "believed on him", yet immediately they began to argue with Jesus and by the end of the conversation Jesus said they were children of the devil and they sought to kill Him. Therefore I can only conclude that when the scripture declares that one has "believed on Jesus" it does not automatically assume this one has "believed" unto regeneration and been born of God. Therefore, the soil in #2 which "believes for awhile" but has "no root" would be those such as these Jews spoken of in John 8. "No root" would be "no rebirth" having Christ as one's "root".

    Jesus calls Himself the "root of David" (Rev 5 & 22)

    Romans 11:16-18 states;

    "For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee."

    3) says these are unfruitful, I would take this to mean "no root" "no fruit". Could a born of God believer be unfruitful? Maybe low fruit verses high fruit, but unfruitful? I believe these are no better off than those in #1 and #2.

    4) appears to me to be the only truly born of God believers. Those who have continued in Jesus' word and have been set free! Born again!

    What do you all believe? Remember, please give a reason WHY. Let's debate scripture and not opinions. Let's have scripture form our doctrine.

    :jesus:
     
  2. JSM17

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    Matt 13:18-23
    "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

    19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

    These people clearly were never saved, they did not even understand the word and by no means produced any fruit.

    20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

    21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

    These received the word with joy, they ENDURED only for a while (believed) yet having no root; I guess we would say that he fell away from an unsaving belief? Luke 8:13
    who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
    NKJV

    Some argue there was still a plant, even though without root, clearly something grew, but no fruit is mentioned, it is clear that the plant died before fruit could be produced.


    22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

    The only question I have is if he became unfruitful does this mean he produce fruit and then no longer did when the cares of the world choke the word? I see the word producing a plant that became unfruitful. I guess the question would then be what kinda of fruit is ths parable speaking of? Did this one produce fruit of the Spirit for a time?[
    I]Gal 5:22-25; 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    NKJV
    [/I]

    Although Jesus does not tell us what "becomes unfruitful" means and what it refers to.

    23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
    NKJV

    There is no doubt that there is only one good soil that produces fruit and continues to do so. He did not become unfruitful like the last guy, I wonder if this fruit is the same as the last guy who became unfruitful? Do you think the last guy produced the fruit of the Spirit and the other guy just produced bad fruit? Matt 7:17-18; 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
    NKJV
     
  3. thegospelgeek

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    I see it as the first were never saved. They allowed Satan to steal the word away. I see all the others as beleivers. The word did grow. The plants sprouted. When Jesus says they didn't have roots he is meaning that the roots were not deep enough to keep them through the difficulties. Not that they didn't exist. As mentioned, the third group becomes unfruitful because of the world. These I wonder about because Jesus said that those who bore not fruit would be cut off. The fourth group we all agree on (i think).
     
  4. steaver

    steaver
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    Luk 3:9And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


    Does this then declare to you that one must bear fruit as a work to keep themself saved?

    I believe not. A good tree bears good fruit by it's very nature. One is only "good" if Jesus Christ has indwelled them. It can only be Christ which makes a tree "good". No Christ=bad fruit...

    Jhn 15:5I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


    :jesus:
     
  5. thegospelgeek

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    I do not beleive that it says that one must bear fruit to keep saved, it says that if one is saved they bear fruit. I have an apple tree in my back yard. Each season it bears apples. It has never produced peaches, nor does it produce thorns. By it's nature it produces apples.

    So we are. The bible clearly teaches that if one is a christian, they WILL bear fruit. It's in their nature. It is also pretty clear, at least to me, that if one does not bear fruit will be cut off.

    What I wonder about is how long will the Lord wait for one to bear fruit?
     
  6. swaimj

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    From the OP:
    I don' think the purpose of the parable is so that we can figure out if other people are saved. The purpose is for me to examine myself. Am I bearing fruit? If I am not in the fourth group, then I have to ask myself, "am I really saved".

    When it comes to examining others, the parable of the wheat and the tares is apropo; the saved and the unsaved are mingled together and no one can tell them apart until God separates them at the judgement.
     
  7. thegospelgeek

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    Amen Brother. Good post.

    My concern with others stems from a close relative that I worry about. I know it doesn't profit to worry about it, but I do.
     
  8. steaver

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    You said a true Christian WILL bear fruit. If so, why would the Lord be waiting for a Christian to bear fruit? It will happen, correct?

    :jesus:
     
  9. steaver

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    Then you believe only the fourth group is saved? Fruit bearers?

    How do we define "Fruit"? Cannot a lost person do a good deed?

    :jesus:
     
  10. swaimj

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    I believe the first group is unsaved, definitely. I believe the last group is definitely saved. The middle two, I do not believe we can know if they are saved or not.

    A person can do a good deed, but fruit is righteousness. Righteousness is not only morally excellent but done from a heart that is right and done with the right goal in mind; glorifying God. Only a truly regenerated person can produce righteousness.
     
  11. thegospelgeek

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    Yes, scripture teaches that they will bear fruit. But group 3 becomes unfruitful. How long will God wait for them to become fruitful again? John 15 and Rom 11 teach that he will cut them off, but when?

    As for what the fruit is, I have a difficulkt time beleiving anything but the fruits of the spirit. I can't recall any other scriptural reference to another fruit that we might bear.
     
  12. thegospelgeek

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    Yes, scripture teaches that they will bear fruit. But group 3 becomes unfruitful. How long will God wait for them to become fruitful again? John 15 and Rom 11 teach that he will cut them off, but when?

    As for what the fruit is, I have a difficult time beleiving anything but the fruits of the spirit. I can't recall any other scriptural reference to another fruit that we might bear.
     
  13. steaver

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    Your losing me brother! :wavey:
     
  14. trustitl

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    Not true.

    Was Paul "regenerated" when he was righteous under the law? Here is a righteousness that you can take to hell with you. BTW, if Paul wanted us to think this was "self" righteousness he would have said that. There is only one righteousness that will save, and that is Jesus'. Praise the Lord it is now mine too!

    Phillippians 3
    6:touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
    9 "not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"
     
  15. thegospelgeek

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    Where am I losing you? Don't you know you are supposed to know what I am thinking :D

    Cause and effect. One is not saved by bearing fruit. One does not remain saved by bearing fruit. But if one is saved, they will bear fruit. Question is, what fruit? One brother stated righteousness. I disagree. The fruit is 'fruit of the Spirit'. The fruits of the spirit are not works, but condition of the heart, that manifest themselves in actions.

    The other question is how long will God wait for the fruit? How long between seasons? Can one be saved and yet none of the fruit become manifest? Notice that rigt after the explanation of the parable that Christ states that you do not light a candle to cover it with something but to put it on a stand.

    What do you think the fruit is? and why?
     
  16. steaver

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    I don't think he meant self-works of righteousness. The fruit of the Spirit is righteous.

    1Jo 3:7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    a) Fruit cannot come, will not come unless one is born again. If one is born again (saved) then they will bear fruit. Some a little, some alot.

    b) No

    :jesus:
     
  17. Marcia

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    The thing is, when Jesus was teaching this, they did not know about the fruit of the Spirit. This had to make sense to the hearer, however, so it must have been explanable by something else. Also, even those who believed in Jesus at the time did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit until he ascended.

    Look at 1 Cor. that talks about the believers who disrespected the Lord's Supper and "now sleep." This means God took them home. Also, look at Anininas and Sapphira - believers who were taken home. This also fits in with the "sin unto death." I do believe there are believers who do not produce fruit. So I think the 3rd category can be believers.


    Actions that would show they are a believer in Christ. Their life would line up with what Jesus taught in his various parables and sermons (and with the OT teachings) rather than with the cultural mores of the day and the pagan teachings. Jesus taught some very specific things.
     
  18. thegospelgeek

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    Still haven't gotten an answer on how long God will wait for the fruit. If I am not fruitful today will I die in my sleep tonight? Or will God give me a week? Maybe a month?

    I'm not trying to be cute, just exagerating to make my point.

    Marcia, you make some good points except I disagree with ruling out the Fruit of the Spirit. There are other scriptures that could not be understood completely until later. I do understand your logic though.

    If the third group are live plants, we must consider them to be saved. The seed came to life. The Word of God came to life. They were either unfruitful or became unfruitful, depending on how you read it. Group 4 did not bear fruit as soon as it sprouted, or did it?
     

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