Free Grace Theology: Mocking God?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Internet Theologian, Nov 12, 2015.

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  1. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian
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    Keep in mind, when considering the title of the OP that Free Grace Theology is a system of soteriology, a theological 'camp' if you will, thus the phrase refers to that camp and not to the fact that salvation is by God's grace.

    The soteriological view contained in Free Grace Theology teaches a person can apostatize from the faith, deny Christ, deny the Gospel, live in any number of habitual sins, and, is still saved. Adherents to this system teach a saved person may never exhibit any evidence of regeneration.

    Popular proponents of this teaching are the late Zane Hodges, Charles Ryrie and Charles Stanley (among many others) and one notably from the past Robert Sandeman (reference 'Sandemanianism'). Dallas Theological Seminary is well known for this teaching as well. Furthermore there is a dichotomy drawn, in this teaching, between a 'believer' and a 'disciple'. This presumably makes allowance for the antinomian like teachings.

    The above is only a brief description of the teachings from this camp, which are quite popular today. Perhaps some on this board are advocates of this newer theological camp?

    Is this theological system biblical? Can a person sow to the flesh and still reap eternal life (Galatians 6:7-8)?
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    Those men are in error but it goes to far to suggest they are mocking God. Such rhetoric is not necessary.
     
  3. Internet Theologian

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    Thanks for your opinion, but actually this is necessary, just as all false teaching and teachers should be exposed. Thanks also for deeming the OP as persuasive in your language above, I appreciate your compliment.

    I am certain you will, according to your stance, see to it that you treat others, in life, on this board, as you deem these false teachers should be treated.
     
  4. Internet Theologian

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    Also, I would like to add the impossibility of actually mocking God. Self-deception is the issue; 'Be not deceived, God is not mocked.'
     
  5. InTheLight

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    I've been here 5 years now and I've never seen anyone espousing these beliefs.

    You would help your argument if you were to post a link showing one of the people you mentioned putting forth this doctrine.


    Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo using Tapatalk.
     
  6. Internet Theologian

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    This same teaching is affirmed in carnal christian beliefs and has been around for years. It appears you're not familiar with the teachings of this system. That is difficult to fathom given you've been on a theological forum five years, and certainly the topic has been discussed and espoused here.

    Try google and search for Free Grace Theology? Self-discovery is the best teacher for many, and I believe it would be advantageous for you to know about this false system and what it teaches. I highly doubt that providing a link to you would help this discussion, or that proof would cause you to believe the OP. Just a gut feeling here.
     
    #6 Internet Theologian, Nov 12, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
  7. Jerome

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  8. Revmitchell

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    Agreeing with your opinion that those men are incorrect on some of their theology is not deeming your opinion persuasive. I simply agreed in part with a portion of your op as I am very familiar with their teachings.

    Everyone who teaches the Bible can be labeled a false teacher. None of us gets everything right. We all teach something that is in error at one time or another. Those men are in error but are not false teachers in the sense that they teach or have taught a gospel contrary to scripture. They all believe salvation is obtained by grace through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Their error is in how Christians live not in how they get saved.

    While it may not be your intent you have misrepresented those men. The small portion of what you posted is in fact correct but your failure to post their doctrine in full is misleading.I would also add that there is a stark difference in exposing false teaching and saying someone is mocking God.

    Your use of Galatians 6:7 is out of context and cannot be applied to these men. The word mocked means to deliberately turn your nose up to something or someone in scorn. Just because those men are in error on this doctrine does not automatically mean they are doing that. They all love the Lord and are genuinely seeking Him. They may be deceived or just wrong but that does not mean they are mocking God. One does not automatically lead to the other.

    It may help you to go to your pastor and have him show you how to study scripture. That way you will not make such basic errors in hermeneutics.
     
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  9. Internet Theologian

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    If you weren't deeming it persuasive then use another word besides rhetoric next time and say what you really mean by employing proper word choice.

    Perhaps, but that is not even remotely the point, this is bigger than that and has to do with proper salvation and what it entails, looks like, something you don't necessarily grasp very well as later on you excuse this error.

    They've in fact taught and continue to teach a false gospel. They are preaching the unconverted as converted, a false interpretation and application that 'belief alone' saves. You'd know this if you knew Zane Hodges arguments, Ryries, others.

    We all have statements of belief. These statements are either affirmed or denied once said person teaches. They may say they believe concerning the gospel by a statement of faith, but they fall short on what that salvation accomplishes, showing a vast misunderstanding of the Gospel and soteriology. You do know that their gospel is a reaction against so-called 'Lordship Salvation', correct?

    I've not misrepresented these men nor Free Grace Theology so put an end to your false accusations. By the way, below you will say I did represent them correctly. It is whatever you need to say at whatever point, even contradicting yourself, contradicting others in order for you to appear 'right'. Others have nailed you for this on other threads/topics. Wake up to yourself.

    Let me see here, what I said was true/correct (and it is) yet above you said I misrepresented them, now you say the contrary.

    Hmmm. Interesting. Back and forth, back and forth.

    There is no need to post their 'doctrine in full' and such is an asinine standard especially in light of the fact I've represented them truthfully, and, that this is a forum, where nothing is exhaustive. The small portion I've given gives enough of the story for people to get it.

    It is rightly applied to their teachings to others and is not out of context. Their teaching is that even living a lifestyle of sin, those who do can fully expect to reap everlasting life, so they've applied it to themselves. Their message is deceptive and false, an extension of their false gospel, which in their teaching means 'good news, believe, live any way you want, go to heaven'.

    That is their gospel message.

    Yep, which is what they teach in their soteriological system. You'd know this if you knew a fourth of what you claim to know about this system. Do you teach the same system yourself? Why or why not?

    That is simply absurd, senseless, and laughable. You're all over the place and it is difficult to respect you when you're being disingenuous and deceitful.

    First they teach it, then they don't, then they do, they are truthfully represented, then they aren't, then it doesn't mean they automatically mean they are doing that.

    Do you realize how absolutely ridiculous you sound here?

    Let me put it to you like this, in plain speech - they automatically and purposely teach their errors, they may be deceived into believing it, but they aren't teaching it by accident.

    So you know their hearts and motives, kind of like God does, right? Get over yourself, you do not know this.

    Where did I say they (the false teachers) themselves are mocking God? Quote where I made that statement.

    My point is that those teaching others that they will reap eternal life while sowing to the flesh is self-deception, in that, they will reap what they've sown, and God will not be mocked, i.e. 'be not deceived'. Persons who teach this are in fact teaching a false Gospel, as Christ Himself in His Gospel never once mentioned nor encouraged that the result of the Gospel message is assurance for those who live in iniquity - note Matthew 7:21 and following.

    There is your typical snide remark (typically it is name calling elsewhere) a habitual walk for you as witnessed on this forum by many and by One.

    By the way, I am my 'pastor'.
     
    #9 Internet Theologian, Nov 12, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
  10. Internet Theologian

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  11. Revmitchell

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    I see my disagreement with your opinion has upset you. I pray you find your peace.
     
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  12. InTheLight

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    No, I'm not. At least not the way you characterize it-- "a person can apostatize from the faith, deny Christ, deny the Gospel...and still be saved."

    That's why I asked you for links. I'd be interested to see proponents of this view state it in such terms.

    Blame the questioner for your inability to answer the question. Neat trick.


    Why not Google "Deny Christ and be saved" ? or "apostatize the faith and go to Heaven" ?

    You should go into politics or public relations. What a load of doublespeak.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    Those men listed in the op are those who hold to what is known as Millennial Exclusion to include Charles Stanley. They believe that those who are once saved may deny Christ but will be cast into outer darkness during the Millennium but are still saved eternally. You have to be a faithful Christian in their view in order to serve and live with Christ in the Millennium. This lack of info in the op is why I suggested that the op has misrepresented their view. It does not tell the entire story. More than likely the author of the op does not know the full details of their doctrine else he would have included it. You can research the last name Faust. He is the more recent purveyor of that doctrine.
     
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  14. robustheologian

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    Hmm...has anyone heard from savedbymercy? Cautious
     
  15. JamesL

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    good grief, I hope not. I've never met someone who is so indoctrinated in one pov that they can't even think rationally.

    take that back. I know a Baptist preacher just like that
     
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  16. JamesL

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    I agree with Rev. The OP misrepresented the Free Grace position with the use of the word Antinomia. The insinuation is that FG teachers are advocating a licentious lifestyle, which is hardly the case.

    but it is possible that some believers will become apostate, deny the faith, live their whole life for themselves.
     
  17. robustheologian

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    Though I'm on the fence regarding the whole lordship vs. free grace thing, I must admit that free grace theology from the outside may look like antinomianism. But the rhetoric concerning FG proponents are a little extreme.
     
  18. InTheLight

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    Thanks for the info.

    Isn't Millennial Exclusion a forbidden topic on BB? It could be why I haven't heard of it in my 5 years on this board.



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  19. SovereignGrace

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    I see this as an issue of sanctification. If people are truly saved, they will, even if very slowly, will conform their lives more and more to the image of Christ. Now, if all of us lived to be 1,000,000,000 years old, we would never attain the level that Christ is. But, we will show growth in our walk with God.

    If someone is saved, they are sanctified, justified and converted. You can't have one without the others. 1 Cor. 6 bears this truth Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers, nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.[vss 9-11]
     
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  20. Internet Theologian

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    Good, since you're not familiar with this and have only offered scorn, I would kindly ask you to refrain from responding to this thread. Thanks.
     
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