Free-Masonry and the Founding Fathers...

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by bound, Apr 20, 2007.

  1. bound

    bound
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    I'm reading a book by David Barton, The Question of Freemasonry and the Founding Fathers: Was America Founded by Freemasons?. I was wondering what others on the forum thought of our nations origins?

    I welcome your thoughts.
     
  2. amity

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    Yes, the vast majority of the so-called "founding fathers" were Freemasons, and yes that is a bad thing, or at least not a good thing. That is where much of the strange symbolism on the money comes from. They were also Deists, and that is not a good thing either.

    See:
    http://bessel.org/presmas.htm

    Most presidents were only nominally Christian:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidents_of_the_United_States_by_religion
     
    #2 amity, Apr 20, 2007
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  3. Ralph III

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    No, I think it was founded by Christians. Yes, many were members of the masons and there was some influence of course, however.

    I have posted in short about this subject once before but will post a snippet again, from History forum. It was specifically in regards to George Washington but much applies to all.

    Washington did write the Reverend back to say he did not doubt there was a negative movement within the Mason's but did not feel it was organized, within America.


    In Contrast Washington supported several Churches and served as a Vestryman for 16 years within his. He at times, if available/capable, would attend Church services twice on Sunday. He made the effort to travel half a day for Sunday services as such was 7 plus miles on horseback or buggy and with possible bad weather. etc. Not quite like us with getting in our car and driving around the corner for service!


    take care.:jesus:
     
    #3 Ralph III, Apr 20, 2007
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  4. donnA

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    I guess the question is, can a persons allegiance be to God and a false religion, like freemasons.
    They claimed christianity, but didn't mind false worship either, a mingling of truth with lies is never good.
     
  5. Magnetic Poles

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    There's your problem right there! :laugh:
     
  6. 2 Timothy2:1-4

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    the lefts revisionism is astounding. the Founding Fathers were not deists. It isnt eve reasonable to come to that conclusion. As far as being a mason this is most liely true. We have in our churches today many Baptists that are currently masons. so many fo them are deacons. it is important to note people join these types of organizations without having all the facts. And they require that men reach a certain level before they are gven much of the details. So for many both in the past and today they join the masons much in the same way that some join the kiwanas etc.
     
  7. Terry_Herrington

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    Yea, everything that is wrong with everything is the fault of the dreaded "left." :laugh:

    You sure do have a simplistic approach to life. :laugh:
     
  8. Alcott

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    The founders being free masons wouldn't have been a bad thing. If they had done all the stonework for the White House and the capitol for nothing they should have been given in return free brandy and biscuits.
     
  9. BruceB

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    You are absolutely correct on this assumption. I joined as a young man in my mid-20's and really had no idea of what I was joining. I was a Mason for about 25 years but seldom attended even early on and I didn't want to go through the "chairs". After going the first few years I didn't attend for nearly 18 or so years, then went back once after I had grown in Christ. At that time I knew I didn't belong there, but it took a few years of soul-searching, prayer, study, and the encouragement of a Christian Brother to lead me out - even if you are a casual member you don't demit easily. I demitted (quit) about a year and a half ago and nearly every time I read the Bible I see reasons that was the right decision.

    Bruce
     
  10. amity

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    They read and endorsed Deistic books. They used Deistic terms and expressions in their writings. In many instances they claimed to be Deists, directly or indirectly. Have you got some reason to believe that they were NOT Deists? I would really like to see this. Of course a few really were Christians, but the Deistic influence seems clearly overwhelming in most cases.
     
    #10 amity, Apr 20, 2007
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  11. Jack Matthews

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    I don't think the factual historical record would support your contention. Not all of the founding fathers were Deists, but many of them were. Several of them were agnostics. Washington was Anglican (Church of England). I doubt that any of them would fall into the category of "evangelical" Christian as we understand the term.
     
  12. amity

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    There is no evidence that George Washington was ever a member of a church, including the Episcopalian church he attended regularly. There is quite a bit of evidence to suggest her was not a member. He would leave the church prior to communion, for example, and later declined to even attend on communion Sundays.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_religion
     
  13. Ralph III

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    Bingo! It is amazing that historical and factual things can be pointed out, yet they are soon forgotten or absolutely ignored by some.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Only a few of the Founders would have been considered Deists. Most were quite religious and I hope some of you will not be to dissapointed, if you should see some of them in Heaven!

    Again, Thomas Paine wrote "Age of Reason" which promoted Deism and attacked Christianity, specifically Evangelical. Virtually every Founding Father vehemently scorned him for the blasphemy, as it was seen. He had to leave America but did return only to die a complete outcast. He was buried in a field as no cemetery would take him.

    Benjamin Franklin:
    Samuel Adams:
    John Adams:
    Adams/Jefferson letters
    Benjamin Rush writting to John Dickenson in describing Paine's Age of Reason
    Charles Carroll in stating Age of Reason
    John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration and mentor to many Founders, stated Paine was

    John Quincy Adams

    Elias Boudinot: president of Congress published the "Age of Revelation" which was a rebuttal to Paines work, wrote his daughter Susan.
    etc, etc, etc


    Just a snippet of other things they did and said.

    One of the first acts of Congress was to appoint a Christian Chaplain, The Ten Commandments is engraved in Federal Buildings, they pray before sessions, held Church services in Congress, procured and distributed Bibles, established Thanksgiving Day as a day to give thanks to our Lord. They also banned Government business on Sunday as that was the day we Christians see as the Lord's Day, which the Founders also faithfully observed. They made an exception for this in the Constitution itself.
    etc, etc

    A few other quotes:

    In offering assistance to the Native Indians George Washington states
    Quote:

    Washington appointed and Congress approved, John Jay first Chief Justice of Supreme Court, whom said
    Quote:
    John Quincy Adams remarks on America at a Fourth of July celebration;
    Quote:
    John Adams and John Hancock:
    etc, etc



    Yes, I believe some made it but that is for Jesus to decide alone and not us sanctimonious Christians of 2007.

    AMEN:jesus:
     
    #13 Ralph III, Apr 20, 2007
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  14. amity

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    Here is a start -

    Thomas Jefferson:
    Thomas Jefferson even edited the Gospel heavily, removing every miracle, including the resurrection.


    George Washington:
    Ethan Allen:
    Benjamin Franklin:
    John Adams:
    James Madison:
    However, I must admit both sides in this debate are taking quotes out of context and distorting what was actually said. The truth is difficult to arrive at in some cases. I have tried to check the above quotes for accuracy, but I would be tickled to have someone show me that they are not legitimate. Similarly, I think at least one of your quotes above comes from a book wirtten by a man who was later shown to be falsifying quotes. Washington's alleged letter to one of the Native American tribes (Delaware) has been disputed as to its authenticity. Washington is recorded to have never once said or written the name of Jesus Christ.
     
    #14 amity, Apr 21, 2007
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  15. saturneptune

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    Amity,
    That is quite interesting. I have a direct line to Ethan Allen, but never gave what he said or believed much thought. That stuff was important to my granddad, and he and my dad were masons, but I have never given it much serious consideration. Between church, job, and family, the time is not there.
     
  16. amity

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    We do all need to be careful. John Adams is often quoted to have said:
    But what he really said was:
     
  17. menageriekeeper

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    A lot of the things you quoted Amity, don't prove or disprove the salvation of the speaker. They do speak to the opinion of the speaker on "organized religion".
     
  18. JerryL

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    Is Masonry a Religion?
    It’s monitors and notable writers say so."This is because Masonry is a religious institution..." (Kentucky Monitor, p. 28)

    "Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion." (Morals and Dogma, p. 213).

    "It is the province of Masonry to teach all truth--not moral truth alone, but political and philosophical, and even religious truth..." (Morals and Dogma, p. 148. Emphasis mine)

    The Kentucky Monitor says of Albert Pike: "The editor has not found sufficient grounds to differ from Brother Albert Pike, than whom there was never a more profound student of the arcane of our Order, nor from Brother Joseph Fort Newton, than whom there is no greater Masonic scholar today..." (page xi of the introduction).

    "The tendency of all true Masonry is towards religion. If it make any progress, its progress is to that holy end. Look at its ancient landmarks, its sublime ceremonies, its profound symbols and allegories - all inculcating religious doctrines, commanding religious observance, and teaching religious truth, and who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution?" (Ency. of Freemasonry, pg. 728.)

    "Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion and its teachings are instruction in religion…Here we meet as brethren, to learn to know and love each other….This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures." (Morals and Dogmas, pg. 325.)

    "Masonry, then, is indeed, a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it." (Ency. of Freemasonry, pg. 729)

    Does Masonry have a plan of salvation?
    You decide.It was the single object of all the ancient rites and mysteries practiced in the very bosom of pagan darkness. . .to teach the immortality of the Soul. This is still the great design of the third degree of Masonry. This is the scope and aim of its ritual. The Master Mason represents man, when youth, manhood, old age, and life itself have passed away as fleeting shadows, yet raised from the grave of iniquity, and quickened into another and better existence. By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution. . . .and the conclusion we arrive at is, that youth, properly directed, leads [us to the honorable and virtuous maturity, and that] the life of man, regulated by morality, faith, and justice, will be rewarded at its closing hour by the prospect of eternal bliss. . . The important design of the degree is to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul; and hence it has been remarked by a learned writer of our order, that the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation. Book of Constitutions, Grand Lodge South Carolina, 1965, pages 141-2)

    "You were presented a Lambskin or white leather apron. The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. By the lambskin, therefore, the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides."
    ('Kentucky Monitor', p. 32)

    Should a Christian be a Mason?

    This excerpt out of the Kentucky Monitor will show you if masonry has a savior other than Jesus. (Note: The Christian and Masonic saviors are capitalized to show emphasis, but other than that, that is exactly how it is worded. Jerry)
    All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin and suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the CHRISTIANS,JESUS; MASONS,HIRAM. It is interesting that the "small hill west of Mount Moriah" has been identified as Golgotha, or Mount Calvary.
    (Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.)

    "It is the province of Masonry to teach all truth--not moral truth alone, but political and philosophical, and even religious truth..." (Morals and Dogma, p. 148. Emphasis mine)

    "He knocks at the door of the Lodge of his own free will and accord...and comes as a earnest seeker for Light and Truth. (Kentucky Monitor, p. 23. Emphasis mine)

    What about this Light and Truth?
    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    If you are a Christian how can you be in darkness, helpless, and ignorant? Yet in Kentucky ritual they say you are.
    "There you stood without our portals, on the threshold of this new Masonic life, in darkness, helplessness, and ignorance. Having been wandering amid the errors and covered over with the pollutions of the outer and profane world, you came inquiringly to our doors, seeking the new birth, and asking a withdrawal of the veil which concealed the divine truth from your uninitiated sight. And here, as with Moses at the burning bush, the solemn admonition is given, 'Put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.' Ceremonial preparations surrounded you, all of a significant character, to indicate to you that some great change was about to take place in your moral and intellectual condition. There was to be not simply a change for the future, but also an extinction of the past; for initiation is, as it were, a death to the world and a resurrection to a life." (Kentucky Monitor, pp. 26-27)

    If you have Jesus you are not wandering in darkness, helpless or ignorant. You certainly aren't seeking a new birth and the divine truth isn't hidden from you. Masonry can’t make an extinction of your past or bring you to a new life, only Jesus can do that.
    In Christ,
    Jerry (Ex-Mason)


    And I didn't demit, that allows you to get back in later. I wrote a letter and told them I quit and had no intentions of coming back. If you want to learn about masonry vs. Christianity try www.emfj.org
     
    #18 JerryL, Apr 21, 2007
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  19. DQuixote

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    The intellectual pursuits of founding fathers are here examined by intellectual contributors, the unending format of these forums. "My quote is better than your quote," ad nauseum.

    Yes, some were Deists.

    Yes, some were Masons. IMHO they were ignorant of its very roots and ultimate intentions. (We have many of those today).

    Yes, some were of the Christian faith, though they little understood it.

    Yes, some were a mixture of the above.

    Yes, some walked with God.

    finis
     
  20. amity

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    Oh, no, I wasn't trying to disprove or prove the salvation of the speaker! We were just discussing whether they were Christian or not.
     

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