Free Will and Free Grace

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Martin Marprelate, Oct 14, 2011.

  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Here are some quotations on the subject.
    Read and be blessed! :thumbs: (or not, as the case may be)

    “This false idea of ‘free-will’ is a real threat to salvation, and a delusion fraught with the most perilous consequences” (Luther).

    “God has surely promised His grace to the humbled: that is, to those who mourn over and despair of themselves. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realizes that salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another—God alone. As long as he is persuaded that he can make even the smallest contribution to his salvation, he remains self-confident and does not utterly despair of himself, and so is not humbled before God; but plans out for himself (or at least hopes and longs for) a position, an occasion, a work, which shall bring him final salvation. But he who is out of doubt that his destiny depends entirely on the will of God despairs entirely of himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such a man is very near to grace for his salvation.

    “So these truths are published for the sake of the elect, that they may be humbled and brought down to nothing, and so saved. The rest of men resist this humiliation; indeed, they condemn the teaching of self-despair; they want a little something left that they can do for themselves. Secretly they continue proud, and enemies of the grace of God” (Luther).

    “Again, ‘tis a disposition of soul natural to all men to have a high thought of their own righteousness. And hence, they are prone to reject those doctrines that teach man’s absolute dependence on the free and sovereign grace of God and salvation by the righteousness of Christ” (J. Edwards).

    “Till you feel yourself in this extremity of weakness, you are not in a condition (if I may say so) to receive the heavenly help. Your idea of remaining ability is the very thing that repels the help of the Spirit, just as any idea of remaining goodness thrusts away the propitiation of the Savior. It is your not seeing that you have no strength that is keeping you from believing” (Pink).

    Steve
     
  2. webdog

    webdog
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    Blessed by what...fallacy? What is the purpose of this thread but to flame, troll and spam?
     
  3. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    To condemn and correct error.

    And it does a good job.
     
  4. JesusFan

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    pity that the quotes will be preaching to the choir here, as those of us seeing the truth of those statements will say, "amen", while those of us holding to more "free will" salvation will be saying" no good!"

    well, at least Steve did refer this from luther, IF he would have chosen that "heretic" Calvin, none would have read it!
    (tongue firmly in cheek here!"
     
  5. webdog

    webdog
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    There is no correcting of anyone's doctrine, it is merely a bunch of quotes with the mere purpose of trolling. Why would anyone "be blessed" by trolling?
     
  6. Luke2427

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    It is not trolling- it is confronting the darkness.

    This is a noble endeavor.
     
  7. abcgrad94

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    Oh great, here we go again. Why can't you Calvinists keep your TULIP discussions in the theology forum? PLEASE?? Why does this stuff have to get posted EVERYWHERE on BB?
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Well, the posts blessed me when I read them. I posted it here because I thought I might get a more civilized discussion on this forum. Wrong again. Sorry!

    Steve
     
  9. webdog

    webdog
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    You didn't discuss anything, just posted random quotes putting down the doctrine you don't hold to. Would you be blessed by a non cal doing the same? Its trolling...and you've been here long enough to know that.
     
  10. webdog

    webdog
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    I see, its evil and satanic.

    Back to ignore you go...
     
  11. Van

    Van
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    What would be a blessing would be an actual discussion of the merits of posted views. I believe some hit pretty close to the mark, but that is based on the dictionary meaning of the words used, not the code meaning presented through the Calvinist prism.

    I believe in our natural fallen state, if our heart has not been hardened by the practice of sin or by God for His overarching purpose, we have the limited spiritual ability to understand the milk of the gospel. I believe this is taught in 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3. Thus Luther is mistaken in the first quote.

    Does God give grace to the humbled, or to the humble? How does your Bible read. And is that a distinction with or without a difference.

    Next with have the circular argument that if you despair that you cannot contribute to salvation, then that contributes, but if you do not despair, then that pushes away God's grace. Moronic!!

    If we trust in Christ alone, and not in our filthy rags, we are accepting the gospel and whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. It is God who credits our faith as righteousness, and therefore salvation by grace alone through God's acceptance of our faith, as worthless as it may be, is the gospel message.
     
  12. JesusFan

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    pretty simple here...

    we are ALL born as sinners, fallen and seen by God as being physically born "of Adam"

    Depraived and spiritually dead to the Lord, so God decided to send jesus to the Cross, and apply that effectually towardsHis chosen Elect...
    All hear the Gospel freely, those to be saved respond by faith in Christ...


    So sinners, check, depraived check, needs God to apply effectal grace to save them, check

    pretty much Cal and Bible would seem to agree here!
     
  13. Van

    Van
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    Ah but the Calvinist code words do not mean what they say.

    1) First we have apply "that"...but "that" might mean the opportunity for all to be saved, or per Calvinism's code, that would refer to limited atonement. Now if we insert these two possibilities into the assertion we get two very different statements. Why not speak clearly?

    2) We are all conceived in inquity, and thus born sinners. We are not born "of Adam" but born "in Adam" i.e. separated from God by the consequence of Adam's sin. See 1 Corinthians 15:22. Why use "of"? To lay the groundwork for the false assertion that the old man (adamic) nature is passed physically rather than spiritually.

    3) What verse says or implies the fallen are spiritually dead to the Lord? Answer: None.
    So yet another false teaching from Calvinism or its erstwhile advocates. Go figure.
    To be spiritually dead is to be spiritually separated from God. Thus we are all dead in our sins. Calvinism tries to add to this scriptural truth, by equating being spiritually dead with total spiritual inability, but that is unbiblical.

    4) Sinners need God to apply saving grace to save them! We do not save ourselves, we are "in Christ" by God's doing, 1 Corinthians 1:30. And he makes this selection, our individual election, through faith in the truth, by crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

    5) So pretty much Calvinism misrepresents the Bible.
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Well, what I do if I see a post I don't like is either ignore it or argue against it. What I don't do is whinge about it. Actually, not being a computer person, I was unaware until now what 'Trolling' meant, except I thought it might have something to do with Lord of the Rings :laugh:. But if the Moderators feel I've done something wrong, I apologize, and will be quite happy to have the thread removed.

    Steve
     
  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Thank you for a positive reaction. I'm glad that you see some merit in the extracts.

    .
    I believe you are mistaken concerning Paul's use of 'carnal' (Gk. sarkikos) in 1Cor 3:1. Are you assuming that it is synonymous with 'natural' (Gk. pseuchikos) in 2:14? The point is that Paul addresses the Corinthian Church at the start of the letter as 'sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints' (1:2) and goes on to speak of the grace that was given to them in Christ Jesus (1:4). They are enriched in all utterance and knowledge and come short in no spiritual gift (1:5, 7). So when Paul speaks of the 'natural' man who does not receive the things of God etc., he is not thinking of the Corinthian church members. And when he calls the Corintians 'carnal,' he cannot mean that they are unconverted. He simply means that they have a worldly attitude in their favoritism to various preachers which is leading them into divisions.

    Well one is an adjective and the other a participle of a verb. 'Humble' is a state one is in (Gk. tapeinos. Jam 4:6; 1Pet 5:5); 'humbled' is an effect of what someone has done to you or what you have done to yourself. The NT speaks frequently of the need to humble oneself (eg. Matt 18:4; 23:12), but Paul speaks of God humbling him in 2Cor 12:21). Deut 8: 2, 3, 16 speak of God 'humbling' the Israelites in the desert. Luther's point is that one needs to be humbled by God before one can receive His grace (Jam 4:6 again). I myself came to this point around the time of my conversion. I don't think that men are naturally humble.

    I don't see that argument as circular, and certainly not as moronic. God does not deal with us in our pride and self-belief. It is when we come to the end of ourselves and cry out to Him in despair that he will save us. That is the teaching of Psalm 107 and many other texts. Sadly, the natural man would rather drown in his unbelief than accept salvation on God's terms.
    Yes, but then we're back in 1Cor 2:14. The natural (unconverted) man does not receive the things of God.

    Steve
     
    #15 Martin Marprelate, Oct 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2011
  16. Martin Marprelate

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    Well you have certainly not 'spoken' clearly here. What 'that' are you referring to?

    We are both born 'in Adam' and 'of Adam.' He was our covenant or representative head and his fall is our fall (1Cor 15:22). However, we are also his descendants and his sinful nature is also passed down to us (Gen 5:3). Therefore we have both a sinful inheritance and a sinful nature. We are not only sinners 'in Adam;' we are sinners in our own right through Adam (Rom 5:12).

    Not at all. Eph 2:1-10 is pretty conclusive on this matter. We were dead. We did not, could not, make ourselves alive. God made us alive.:godisgood:

    Yes, but of course that very faith is God's gift to us (Eph 2:8). We are in no position to make any contribution to our salvation (Rom 5:6)
    I think not.

    Steve
     
  17. JesusFan

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    Would have to say that your biggest error would be that you fail to understand/see just how devasting the Fall of Adam was to all of mankind, as they we were all "killed" in that act by adam, being found in Him, so that is the reason why God would save us as we Cals see it!
     
  18. Van

    Van
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    I believe you are mistaken concerning Paul's use of 'carnal' (Gk. sarkikos) in 1Cor 3:1. Are you assuming that it is synonymous with 'natural' (Gk. pseuchikos) in 2:14? The point is that Paul addresses the Corinthian Church at the start of the letter as 'sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints' (1:2) and goes on to speak of the grace that was given to them in Christ Jesus (1:4). They are enriched in all utterance and knowledge and come short in no spiritual gift (1:5, 7). So when Paul speaks of the 'natural' man who does not receive the things of God etc., he is not thinking of the Corinthian church members. And when he calls the Corintians 'carnal,' he cannot mean that they are unconverted. He simply means that they have a worldly attitude in their favoritism to various preachers which is leading them into divisions.

    I believe "men of flesh" does refer to "natural man" being unconverted. And yes, Paul is not speaking to natural men, he is speaking to babes in Christ, i.e. converted, but not yet spiritually mature, having yet to learn the spiritual things discerned with the aid of the Holy Spirit. So Paul was speaking to converted but immature Christians, as if they were still men of flesh, because they had not yet learned from the Spirit, they could not handle meat but milk only. Therefore men of flesh can understand milk. This is inescapable.

    My Bible reads God gives grace to the humble, not humbled. In other words it refers to our willingness to accept salvation from God, our beggarly attitude, rather than considering ourselves somehow deserving of salvation. Blessed are the poor in spirit, those that know they can do nothing to help themselves and reach out to God. God gives grace to the humble.

    The assertion that the natural man would rather die in his unbelief than reach out to God is pure rubbish. Matthew 13 teaches that 3 of the 4 soils reached out to God. The moronic assertion is that if you despair that you cannot contribute, a work on your part, that contributes to your salvation. A prideful person would despair that he could not contribute, but a humble person would reach as a beggar for a salvation by grace. Despair does not enter into it, only the sure and certain knowledge that nothing we do merits our salvation, we trust in Christ alone!!!!!!!!!!
     
    #18 Van, Oct 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2011
  19. Van

    Van
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    “God has surely promised His grace to the humbled: that is, to those who mourn over and despair of themselves. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realizes that salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another—God alone. As long as he is persuaded that he can make even the smallest contribution to his salvation, he remains self-confident and does not utterly despair of himself, and so is not humbled before God; but plans out for himself (or at least hopes and longs for) a position, an occasion, a work, which shall bring him final salvation. But he who is out of doubt that his destiny depends entirely on the will of God despairs entirely of himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such a man is very near to grace for his salvation.

    This statement hits pretty close to the mark, unless it is in code with an entirely different meaning. God promised grace to the humble, not those humbled by irresistible grace. Calvinism claims a natural man is unable to reach out to God, unless regenerated beforehand. Therefore what this statement does not say, is it is impossible for a unregenerate man to seek salvation through faith in Christ from the heart, according to Calvinism.
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    Being spiritually dead/depraived means that the "part" of us that can commune/respond to God was 'swirched" off after the fall of Adam, and so we cannot respond to God in a saving fashion, so try to come to God by making up "false religions/gods" basically end up with salvation by a works system!

    There is absolutely no scriptural support whatsoever for the claim that unregenerate natural men of flesh have had their ability to respond to God. Many times the response is inadequate for God's purpose, i.e. seek God through works, but we have scripture after scripture, i.e. Romans 9:30-33, Matthew 13, Matthew 23:13, and so forth where unregenerate men cry out to God. Did I mention Romans 7?
     

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