Free Will and Free Grace

*sigh* I know this is what you believe, but just believing something doesn't mean it's "biblical truth". We are judged sinners in front of God for being just that, sinners. THIS is what Scripture teaches, not the contorted view espoused by Augustine and his followers.

 

This is the exact view epoused by the Apostle paul, not Augustine/calin whoever though!

They would have found this doctrine thru and by paul!

 

You mean the same Paul who said we are dead in OUR sins and trespasses in which WE used to walk? Ok. Doesn't get any more plain than that...and here it gets twisted by a single verse which merely states the curse (death) passed to all men due to Adam. Not once does it say we are guilty in Adam...and here I just showed you where Paul said how we were dead and in whose sin. Will you believe Paul?

I'll believe Paul.

 

Hi Jesusfan, you posted:

Just curious van, what do YOU think Apostle paul meant ALL of us before the Lord ARE dead in our sins and trangressions, and that ALL died, as being found by God "in Adam?"

Also, are we sinners at birth, born into that state by the "human condition", or become such when we take first active sin?
As I said zillion times, those oppossed to the DoG seem to be unable to fully understand the Biblicalextent of the fall of Adam being to ALL of us afterwards!

Why are you asking this question, Jesusfan, as I have answered it in my post. Just curious Jesusfan, can you comprehend any spiritual truth?

Your questions are aimed at suggesting they might possibly reflect my views, which of course they do not. So a wholesale effort to misrepresent me. Why do you hate the truth.

The issue is not that we were all spiritually dead before God made us alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5, the issue is does being spiritually dead equate with total spiritual inability and it does not. But rather than discuss this, the Calvinists muddy the water, offer up questions to suggest strawman arguments and so forth. They run from the light.

 

In response to Dr. Walter post #32;

A Universalist would (and do) argue the the 2nd "all men" in Rom 5:18 qualifies the "they" which receive abundance of grace in Rom 5:17. And actually, their argument would carry more force than your's, as vs. 18 is clearly a summary and explanation of the preceding six verses. See how that works? I can use your own argument against you.

Your error begins in vs. 12 when you accept the Augustine interpretation that says Adam's sin is imputed to all men. His error came from a flawed Latin text which even his supporters admit. This verse is actually saying death passed upon all men "for that" all have sinned. Death has passed on all men because all men have committed personal sin.

Augustine's interpretation directly contradicts God's own command that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father (Eze 18:20)

Once you start vs. 12 with this error, you will necessarily misinterpret vss. 13-21.

And you can't redefine exact words used in the same verse and context as you attempt to do with vs. 18. The Universalists have a better argument than you, but they are also wrong because they also misinterpret vs. 12.

 

You are not going to get anywhere with JF, he is thoroughly indoctrinated (translation- brainwashed).

Jesus called himself the "Son of man" dozens of times. Has anybody ever looked up what that means? It was an OT term that means "the son of Adam". So, if Adam's sin was imputed to his children, then Jesus would have been a sinner.

Look it up and see for yourself.

 

IF you are going to use this point, please allow the bible usuage to be the on eused to support it!

 

remember Paul point that we are ALL considered to be dead in Adam, refering to a state that has already been in effect to us, we are sinners, and that those ONLY found in jesus have been freed from this state and now reborn , with Eternal Life in Him!

 

The sentence of death as judgement by God against Sins of Adam passed to ALL people since that time, all have sinned, and all are in a state of seperation from God, due TO being dead in sins and transgressions..

All of us died soiritual in Adam, past tense, as we all died already, and show it BY the sins that we now comit on a continual ongong basis!

ONLY thing been brainwashed with is the Bible, washed and renewed by the HS!

 

Show me the scripture that says we have spiritually died in Adam, I challenge you to show that to me.

This is what I mean by brainwashed, you say things that are not in the Bible that others told you. If you knew the Bible you would not have said the scriptures say we are spiritually dead in Adam. I already know you can't show it, because it isn't there.

I also know this, you will continue to spout falsehoods, even when you are proven wrong.

So show that scripture, I challenge you.

 

However, that argument will not work because "all" human beings DO NOT "receive" it but "many" adamently reject it.

That is a rediculous interpretation. First, you need not accept the idea of imputation because the whole human race actually existed IN Adam as the whole of human nature was not yet subdivided by reproduction. When he sinnned all humanity actually sinned.

Second, If that was what Paul meant, he should have said "SHALL sin" because not all humans individually existed when Adam personally sinned, neither did all humans individually exist when Paul said this, as there were those living but incapable of intentional sin.

Third, David says "the wicked" go astray "as soon as they be born" and were wicked while still in the womb showing that man is conceived with a sin nature and regarded "wicked" before birth. Death of infants demonstrate this as there is no death where there is no previous sin and thus only in Adam could they "have sinned."

Fourth, his repeated "by one man's offence" is worthless rhetoric if they were not made sinners until they actually sinned.

Fifth, this argument reduces both Adam and Christ and their actions to nothing more than INDIVIDUAL actions with no consequences upon anyone but themselves unless other simply choose to identify with them as none are "made" anything by the ONE MAN'S OFFENCE or by ONE MAN'S OBEDIENCE. Thus your theory reduces the whole text to foolish rhetoric empty of all meaning.

Can anyone then bear the righteousness of Christ? Do fallen father's stand in the same POSITION to their posterity as unfallen Adam stood in relation to his posterity???? This argument is absurd!


Paul's analogy is really simple if you will look at type versus antitype between Adam and Christ.

Adam stands at the head of a race, and by Adam's ONE ACT OF SIN he brought death, condemnation and judgement upon ALL He represented through that ONE ACT OF SIN. THIS IS THIS PRESENT ADAMIC WORLD

In Contrast, Christ stands at the head of another race, and by THE OBEDIENCE OF ONE MAN he brought grace, justification and life upon ALL He represented through HIS OBEDIENCE. THIS IS THE NEW WORLD TO COME.

All that are represented by Adam are not all who were represented by Christ simply because those represented by Christ all "receive" his merits but not all represented by Adam receive the merits of Christ as there is a hell and they populate it rather than the new world to come.

 

You are right, David said we go astray as did many others.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray, but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

You have a PhD, what does the word "returned" mean?
How can you go astray from God if you were born separated from God?

It's right in front of your nose, but you can't see it because your mind has been blinded by false doctrine.

And "in Adam" is shown only once in all scripture (1 Cor 15:22) and is speaking of physical death, not spiritual. This whole chapter is speaking of the resurrection of our physical bodies.

You guys throw around "in Adam" like it's shown on every page of scripture. It is shown only ONCE.

 

Please check out Romans 5:12-14, as in Adam we haveall died in sin, due TO the fact that Adam disobedience passed sin and death to ALL of us alive, and the obedient second Adam brings eternal life!

 

False, vs. 12 says death has passed on all men "for that all have sinned" Even scholars that believe in Original Sin say that this verse is not saying Adam's sin passed on us, do a little research and you will see for yourself. This verse is simply saying all men die because all men sin. PERIOD.

Vs. 13 doesn't help you, because it says SIN IS NOT IMPUTED when there is no law. So, how could Adam's sin be imputed? This verse is saying it is NOT imputed.

Vs. 14 doesn't help you, it says these men HAD NOT sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin. If Adam's sin was imputed to them, then it would say they did sin after the similitude of Adam's sin.

All of these verses say the reverse of what you say.

 

The primary problem is that you either do not understand or do not follow basic rules of interpretation. The above is a prime example. The a,b,c's of hermeneutics demands that you make a distinction between things that differ, subjects that differ, contexts that differ.

For example, there are two different writers (David, Peter) talking about two different subjects ("the wicked" "ye") concerning two different conditions ("from the womb" "returned") about two different times ("as soon as ye be born" and second birth). You are confusing apples with oranges.

Think about this. When did David say this departure occurred? "from the womb" is the answer. This necessarily means that "in sin did my mother conceive me" if "from the womb" the wicked went astray. It means they were CONCIEVED WITH A SIN NATURE and hence it was derived from something, somewhere else - ADAM - "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS."

Therefore, when the TWICE BORN believers that Peter spoke of "returned" it has its ultimate refernce to their initial departure in Adam as that is where the initial departure from their Creator occurred. - "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" not by many men's offences they were made sinners!!!!!! (which is your doctrine not Paul's)


And so as you rightly say, "It's right in front of your nose, but you can't see it because your mind has been blinded by false doctrine"

Death is the consequence of sin "in Adam" - "by one man's offence many were made sinners."

One definition of sin is "to go astray":

Isa. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

And so if all die "in Adam" it is because all sinned, went astray "In Adam" or else death could not be justly passed down to all of Adam's posterity.

Both "sin" and "death" and "condemnation" and "judgement" OF MANY are attributed to "ONE MAN'S OFFENCE"



And so as you rightly say, "It's right in front of your nose, but you can't see it because your mind has been blinded by false doctrine"

 

You are still not getting it, a sheep cannot "go astray" unless it was originally in the flock.

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Where was the sheep originally?

Oh, you will say this is a backslidden believer, but Jesus said this man was a "sinner".

Then Jesus tells of a woman who had ten pieces of silver, one was lost, and she searched till she found it.

But where was the coin originally?

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

How can you be alive AGAIN if you were born dead? When do the scriptures ever call a believer lost or dead?

Right in front of your nose my friend, right in front of your nose.

Paul was quoting Psalm 14 in Romans, but he did not quote it word for word.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

How do you "become" filthy if you are born filthy?

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions.

This is speaking off all men as shown by the word "they" (plural).

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and behold it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

You are a scholar, what does corrupt mean? Isn't it defined as going from a state of good to bad, as when you leave fruit out and it spoils?

I am amazed folks read words they know the definition of, yet do not comprehend their meaning.

Now go back and read 1 Pet 2:25 and it will make sense, unless your blinders get in the way.

 

Only IF someone refuses to understand the clear teaching from the Lord about us being dead in Adam,but alive again in Christ!

 

Luke 15 is a series of parables designed to rebuke the Pharisees of their self-righteous mindset that imagined they were in no need of repentance, but already righteous without need of a physician because they perceived themselves as already whole. In these parables the 99 sheep, nine coins and elder son all are pictures of the Pharisee's or those who never believed they were lost and in need of repentance. The elder son says this clearly, that he had never at any time ever disobeyed his father - that was the pharisee mindself echoed in the prayer of the pharisee in contrast to the prayer of the publican. The one lost sheep, one found coin and prodigal son represent those whom the Pharisees scorned as lower class scum that Jesus ate and fellowshipped with and who received his word and repented of their sins. You obviously do no understand these parables or their intent and besides doctrine is not founded upon parables, allegories, spiritualizations but upon clear Biblical precepts and principles and such things are then proper to use to support that basis of doctrine.

Depravity is a state or condition but corruption is a process that worsen's with time. All of man's faculties are bent toward sin from birth - depravity - but with time and experience that natural bent results with increasing corruption until the day they die.

I have explained this before to you in the analogy of a person who has just died versus a person who has been dead for three or four days versus a person who has been dead for weeks. They are all EQUALLY dead in every aspect of their being = total depravity - but they are NOT all equally corrupt. The person who just died looks as though they are merely sleeping (self-righteous people). The person who has been dead for a couple of days no longer looks like he was sleeping but looks quite dead and stiff. However, the one who has been dead for weeks plainly stinks. In all three there are stages of corruption in death but they are different and yet all equally dead and all equally began at the same stage in the beginning and then became increasingly corrupted as time commenced. They are born sinners by nature but with time they become sinners by practice and thus become corrupted by practice.