Free will and the soils parable

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    The parable of the soils (Matt 13) is direct evidence against the unbiblical doctrine of "libertarian free will" since it is the quality of the soil that determines whether or not it bears fruit. Libertarian free will proponents teach that the choices people make are not determined in any sense by the character or inclinations of the people who make them, which would render this parable meaningless.

    -from monergism books
     
  2. Winman

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    Jesus also told this parable in Luke chapter 8, and there he showed the condition of the soil was the responsibility of the hearer.

    Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

    Jesus told his disciple to "take heed therefore how ye hear". The word "therefore" connects this verse to the parable of the soils which Jesus had just spoken. It shows that the responsiveness of the soils is in the power of the person hearing God's word.

    Some person's have a heart hardened by the love of sin. Before they can receive the message, the devil comes along and reminds them of their sin they love. They immediately disregard the word of God.

    Some hear and receive with joy, but when persecution comes they fall away. I personally believe these persons are saved, because it says they "sprang up", that is, they were alive. No dead thing springs up. But they bring forth no fruit.

    The seed among thorny ground is the same, it is choked and brings forth no fruit.

    The good ground is those who not just hear the word, but are doers of the word as well, they bring forth much fruit.

    Where folks err is misinterpreting "bring forth no fruit" to salvation. The thorny ground and stoney ground is saved, anyone who believes even for a moment is saved, only they bring forth no fruit.

    But the condition of the soil is in the power of the hearer, this is why Jesus concluded this parable by telling his disciples to "take heed therefore how ye hear".

    This verse is not shown in Matt 13, and it is obvious why the writer did not show it.
     
  3. Luke2427

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    You got "the condition of the soil is in the power of the hearer" from "take heed how you hear"?

    How did you do that?

    You will never come to the truth on this matter until you understand a VERY plain truth in the Scripture- and in life.

    The BEST way to make a point about someone's INABILITY is to command them to do something they cannot do by themselves.

    God commands all men to keep his law perfectly.

    And at the same time he says that no one CAN keep his law perfectly.

    Did God make a mistake? No. He made a POINT.

    A point that you cannot seem to get.
     
    #3 Luke2427, Apr 23, 2013
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  4. Winman

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    It is YOU that will never come to the truth. Why would Jesus tell his disciples to take heed how they hear if they were not able?

    Jesus told his disciples that if they will hear and believe the word of God, more will be given to them. But if they refuse to listen, even that which was told them shall be taken away.

    The reason you do not understand is because you will not hear what the word of God says, you believe the false doctrines of men.
     
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    Why would God tell men to keep all of his commandments knowing no man ever has or will?
     
  6. Winman

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    Men can obey God's word, they choose to disobey.

    Which commandment can you not obey? Do you HAVE to lie? Do you HAVE to steal?

    Jesus said if we love him, keep his commandments. If you want to love Jesus, quit telling lies, quit stealing.

    I agree that no man keeps God's commandments, but I do not agree that we are unable to obey.

    Now, that said, Jesus himself said the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Jesus had asked the disciples to pray with him, but they had gotten tired and fallen asleep. So, it is very difficult to deny the lusts of the flesh, especially if we have spent our whole life obeying our fleshly lusts. Bad habits are hard to break.
     
  7. webdog

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    Excellent reply. The determinists have given man yet another excuse on judgement day "is it my fault you made me unfertile soil?"
     
  8. salzer mtn

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    The stony ground hearers are people that their ground or heart has never been cultivated, broken up by the holy Spirit. They never did struggle over their unrighteousness, or have sickness of sin. They immediatly recieved it with gladness being lead to believe salvation is a health and wealth ticket to heaven. There was no depthness of earth, meaning no depth of conviction by the Holy Spirit. They brought fourth a good crop of religion but when persecutions and afflictions ariseth which would prove them, immediately they are offended. They came in of a sudden and went out of a sudden. The thorny ground hearers heart or ground had not been broke up either by the Holy Spirit. This is the key to the parable, ground will not recieve seed and bring forth fruit if it has not been plowed. Jer 4:3 say's break up your fallow ground and sow not among thorns. The thorns represented in this parable the heart or ground that only brings forth works of the flesh. The thorny ground hearers had a bumper crop of natural works of the flesh but that is all. When they were put to the test they chose the fleshly pleasures of this life, cares of the world, deceitfulness of riches and the lust of other things. The Good ground was just that, good ground because it had depthness of earth, had been plowed by the Holy Spirit and when the gospel seed was planted it germinated took hold by the root and produced fruit.
     
    #8 salzer mtn, Apr 23, 2013
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  9. Winman

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    Nice story, too bad it doesn't agree with scripture. Jesus concluded this parable by telling his disciples to take heed therefore how ye hear, showing that the receptiveness of the soils was the responsibility of the hearer.

    Jer 4:3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
    4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

    We see here also God commanding men to break up their fallow ground, and to circumcise themselves. God is commanding these men to take away the hardness of their hearts and listen to him.
     
    #9 Winman, Apr 24, 2013
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  10. salzer mtn

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    All through the bible there are scripture of warnings that we should take heed to, we are responsible but because we are responsible does this give us power ? The natural man has a heart of stone, can the natural man turn his stony heart to a heart of flesh by his free will ? Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots ? All types of ground has to be broken up before it can recieve seed. Every farmer knows you don't go out and throw seed on top of the ground and get results. By chance there might be some loose soil that covered the seed as in the stony ground hearer. There was just enough loose soil that the seed germinated and grew a shoot but the life is in the root. In Mark 4:6 the shoot had no root. Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear. The free will believer believes the ground can plow itself or the man can open his own heart. The free grace believer knows the ground cannot plow itself, natural soil in a field will get harder and harder over time if never plowed. I can go out to my farm and say all day to my fields, take heed and hear me, you need to recieve this seed, but unless i break up the ground, unless the Holy Spirit breaks the heart there will be no harvest.
     
  11. webdog

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    More excuses given to man...while also claiming he is responsible. If this is not talking out of both sides of your mouth nothing is
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    ONLY the last soil was right, so that soil received the seed/word with gladness and joy, and comfirmed by abundant crops!

    Picture of religious persons contrasted with the truely saved!
     
  13. webdog

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    Actually roots grew in more than the good soil, but fruit came from the good soil.
     
  14. quantumfaith

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    IYHO In your humble opinion.
     
  15. HeirofSalvation

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    Correct...they do not.

    "Choices are not ever "determined". They are "known". But they are not "determined".

    A proponent of LFW simply believes that in some ways the sum total of choices they have made have rendered their hearts to be the sort which react in the way that the soils describe....But the state of the soil isn't the primary fact. The sum total of choices the individual has made has rendered their hearts to BE the type of soil that Jesus describes.

    God is not the one who created the thorns or the rocky or the sandy soil.....

    Man's choices rendered their hearts sandy or rocky or thorny soil.
    Otherwise, what is Jesus warning against?
    Hope to high heaven that God has not randomly chosen your heart to be the "thorny" type???.... I hope not, because if he has, than Jesus is wasting some precious time bothering to tell us about it. It would be God's decision to begin with, and God's decision in the end....and there isn't a darned thing any man may do about it.

    We can't change what type of soil we are in your schema....nor can we respond to any warning Jesus might have given.

    Frankly...vis-a-vis Calvinism...that parable is frankly meaningless. Except it be Jesus glorying in the numerous manners in which God might choose to determine men's hearts so that he might torture them eternally....O.K....good for God. God has created numerous poetical ways to describe creatures which he creates for the sole purpose of torturing eternally. :sleep::sleep: He's wasting everyone's time. It is equally as effective to simply say something akin to: :"Hey...I've created you guys for the sole purpose of torturing you eternally for sins you had no option but to commit....because your cries of torment in hell continually rise up to my senses and it pleases me to hear your cries of pain.. I am the only sicko in the Universe who is beloved because I get-off on cries of pain. I'm the sicko who enjoys tormenting creatures eternally. It's who I am...and I've created numerous ones of you with varying "soil-types" which are all incurably pre-disposed to damnation.

    Tell us something we don't know about Calvinism.
     
  16. HeirofSalvation

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    That's exactly what it is....Calvinists claim that the Scriptures repeatedly claim that man is personally responsible for his own decisions........

    They are correct...he is.

    What they don't do...is explain how that is even logically possible if God has pre-determined inescapably what decisions man makes by His own arbitrary will.

    Frankly, vis-a-vis Calvinism....there is no available tool by which man might actually make any decision other than what God has "determined". Man is INCAPABLE....of doing anything other than what God has determined they do.

    God creates sick and nasty beings...and then tortures them eternally for BEING sick and nasty beings....and yet he insists on being blameless for creating such creatures.... and claiming that those beings "chose" to do what they do??

    It's stupid. And it isn't even remotely akin to what the Scriptures teach about the God of the Bible....That's not the God of the Bible...The God of the Bible "delights" in mercy....he doesn't get off on creaturely pain.

    In my opinion....the problem with Calvinist thought, is that they actually think that since God has chosen to guilt EVERY man with a sin Adam committed then....God is covered....NO, NO, "Adam" was the one who sinned...and we all did in Adam.

    This was a necessarry and un-controlable reality that God had no choice over....God did not make the Sovereign choice to guilt all humanity with Adam's sin....It just was that way by necessitty.
    Calvinists won't give you a good reason why Adam's sin must necessarilly be extended to his progeny....they simply think that we're too stupid to realize that it HAD TO HAVE BEEN GOD....who guilted man with it, and that, inescapably.

    They pretend God has NOTHING to do with Original guilt and Original Sin....yah....it was man who created that schema....it's retarded. I don't buy it.
     
    #16 HeirofSalvation, Apr 24, 2013
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  17. Yeshua1

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    Thats OK, as the greatest human mind God ever created, paul, tried to understand what you struggle with, and just accepted it by faith and trust in thre Sovereign ways of God!

    He wrote about it in Romans!
     
  18. psalms109:31

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    There was a farmer who said God provide the seeds and water, I'll just throw the seeds out and let God take care of it.

    A few sprouted here and there, but he ended up losing the farm.

    The other farmer took over it and he tilled the ground planted the seeds at the depth they needed to be , he irrigated and took care of it.

    He yielded a great crop.

    The man came back and said God blessed you in that crop. He said you should of seen when God alone was taking care of it.




    I don't believe in free will, so i do not say this in support of it, but God through His word can change bad soil, you do not have to start off good, but let His word clean out the rocks till the ground and change you to receive what God has for you.

    I do believe we have a free agency to either continue our will that leads to death or do His will. To say not my will but your will be done.

    The whole point of the Gospel is to save sinners and we are the messengers. Bad soil can be changed It doesn't matter if you are the worst of sinners you can be changed by His word.

    Luke 3 :
    7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

    1 Corinthians 3:
    6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

    2 Timothy 2 :
    20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

    It is our curse to work the field and God's to give us the harvest.
     
  19. salzer mtn

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    #19 salzer mtn, Apr 26, 2013
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  20. psalms109:31

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    It takes workers in the field not just throwing seeds out hoping something will take root. I never said the seed does the work in the soil man is cursed with that. We are given the seed to plant and the water for irrigation. It is God who makes it grow. All the scripture I gave supports man working with not God by Himself.

    They did not start off clean they were clean by His word we are messengers of.
     

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