Free will makes God appear impotent.

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by convicted1, Aug 9, 2014.

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  1. convicted1

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    Okay Brothers.....debate......but a heads up to two guys...Winman and Van...I have you on ignore, so you won't be getting any responses from me....

    Your incessant ripping the context from the binding has polluted my eyes looooong enough. :thumbsup:



    ETA: I wrote this on my blog.......
     
    #1 convicted1, Aug 9, 2014
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  2. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Willis....Where do you have Free Will and where does God intervene? See, there are those who I refer to as "Absoluters" who believe God intervenes in everything we do...that we never choose anything.....the simple scratching of my nose is directed by God for example. Now that would make us mere puppets and I believe would lead us to a truely "Hyper Calvinistic " view of life. Further I believe that most Non Calvinists view Doctrines of Grace theology believers as 'Absoluter ' practitioners. Can you speak to that? Thank you.
     
  3. convicted1

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    We act according to our nature. Our will is bound by our nature. We can not not breathe, because it's contrary to our nature. Sure, we can hold our breath, but we'll eventually pass out and automatically start breathing again.

    God seeks us out, we were His sheep, having gone astray. Deut. 32:10....
     
  4. convicted1

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    And no, when we scratch our nose, that wasn't part and parcel to His divine plan...
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I'm sorry....you are not answering my question. Again, where do you see God intervening to make humans complete...ie in line with Gods plan.....then, where do you see Him allowing us free will?
     
  6. Deacon

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    “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. So do not fear...” (Genesis 50:20–21a, ESV)
     
  7. convicted1

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    I am not sure I am following you...:confused: I thought I answered you....but here goes....


    In the lives of sinners, they...and us...were/are fleeing from God. We..and they...enjoyed their sinful lives. God, in His time, seeks us out. He effectually calls us out from amongst the world, via the gospel.

    Look at it like this. We're driving in a car headed for hell. We know it, people warn us, and yet, we joyfully are heading there, enjoying our sinning. God then comes in and steers us and turns us around via repentance. The rest He leaves to go on their merry way.


    In regards to christians, we don't truly have free will, in regards to will. Because when push comes to shove, we'll say, "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven."

    Anything else you need clarified? Please let me know....
     
  8. convicted1

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    We move as freely as the oxen do within their master's yoke, Brother Steve.....
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

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    All right then Willis.....were is it vital for God to direct us.....for him to intervene......elsewise we would fall to perdition? Where you cant be trusted to make that selection?
     
  10. Winman

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    When the scriptures say a man is a servant to sin, it is not saying that a man is compelled to always sin. And when the scriptures say a man is a servant to righteousness, it is not saying that man is always compelled to do right.

    A servant can be disobedient to his master. A servant of sin can refuse to do wrong and do right. Likewise, a servant of righteousness can refuse to do right and do wrong.

    So, how are we servants or slaves of sin or righteousness? We are servants or slaves in the sense that sin or righteousness owns us, as persons were purchased in the ancient slave markets. If you were purchased, your master LEGALLY owned you, you were his POSSESSION. You could run away from your master, but he could send the law after you and apprehend you and you would be returned to your master,

    When we sin, we are "sold to sin" as Paul said in Romans 7:14;

    Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    Once you knowingly and willingly sin, you are sold under sin. Now sin owns you, he is your master, and you are his possession. His wage is death, and there is nothing you can do to escape this except DIE.

    This is how Paul is speaking of us throughout the book of Romans, we were servants or slaves to sin, and the wage of sin is DEATH.

    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    This does not mean you are compelled to sin, this does not mean that all you can do is sin. A servant or slave can disobey his master. Christians are servants to righteousness, but we sin all the time. So this idea that we are a slave to our nature and this is all we can do is completely false, and that is NOT what the scriptures are saying. No, the scriptures are teaching we are OWNED by sin or righteousness as POSSESSIONS.

    Sinners can obey the gospel, it is clearly shown in scripture. And the moment we do, we are baptized into Jesus's death. We die with him to sin. Now sin no longer owns us as a possession. Now we are purchased by the blood of Christ and belong to him. Now Jesus is our master and owns us.

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Romans 6:16-18 demolishes the false doctrine of Total Inability. Paul says to whom we yield ourselves we become servants, whether (option) of sin unto death, or (option) obedience unto righteousness.

    This verse clearly shows men have the option and ability to obey either sin or righteousness, sin and righteousness being personified in this scripture.

    In verse 17 Paul thanks God that these Romans who were servants or slaves of sin have obeyed the gospel delivered them.

    Now this is important, did they have to be regenerated to obey the gospel, or were they able to obey the gospel while they were still servants of sin?

    They were able to obey the gospel while they were servants or slaves to sin. So Total Inability is a false doctrine refuted by scripture.

    And verse 18 tells us "Being then", that is, the moment they obeyed the gospel, it was THEN that they were made FREE from sin and BECAME the servants or slaves of righteousness. We do not have to be made servants of righteousness to obey the gospel as many falsely teach, we obey the gospel to BECOME servants of righteousness. This is what the scriptures truly teach.

    Why were they made free? Because they DIED to sin "in Jesus". Now we belong to Jesus and are his possession, purchased by his blood. Now, we cannot escape Jesus, because we cannot die! He gives us everlasting life, so we cannot die to Jesus and be set free from him, we are his possession FOREVER. That doesn't mean we cannot be disobedient and sin, Christians sin all the time.

    So again, this teaching that we are compelled by our nature to sin (or do righteousness) is pure falsehood and not what the scriptures are teaching.

    Willis can ignore this, but folks who really want to understand the scriptures can study this and learn.
     
    #10 Winman, Aug 9, 2014
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  11. convicted1

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    Psalm 37:22-24 (YLT)

    22 For His blessed ones do possess the land, And His reviled ones are cut off.

    23 From Jehovah [are] the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.

    24 When he falleth, he is not cast down, For Jehovah is sustaining his hand



    2 Cor. 6:17 (YLT) wherefore, come ye forth out of the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and an unclean thing do not touch, and I -- I will receive you,


    James 1:26-27 (YLT)

    26 If any one doth think to be religious among you, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his heart, of this one vain [is] the religion;

    27 religion pure and undefiled with the God and Father is this, to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation -- unspotted to keep himself from the world.


    I think progressive sanctification is what I am driving at.
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    Seriously, this is a rather sophomoric statement that, at best, was just not thought out well.

    If God is the one who set that up and planned it to be that way then how could one make such a claim? Understanding here that is was God who set it up that way.

    Let me say this again: It was God who set it up that way.

    That fact alone negates the sophomoric statement from the op.
     
  13. Rippon

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    Seriously, rm, it was the truth.
    If is the operative word. Calvinists and all biblically-oriented people do not share your view. People don't sit in the driver's seat. We don't have the key to our salvation. God is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Since you believe in free-will you are the one responsible for your own salvation --God is at the mercy of your decision.
    Repeating an untruth doesn't make it so.
    It is fact that free-will is not a fact.
     
  14. Winman

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    What we have is the freedom to submit to God and be saved, or to rebel against God and be damned. How does submitting to God usurp his sovereignty?

    Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Who made this rule? Man? NO, God is the one who has said he that believes shall be saved, and he that believes not shall be damned. God made the rules, God is calling all the shots.

    God is only going to save those persons who believe on Jesus. If you don't believe on Jesus he is going to cast you in the lake of fire.

    This argument from Calvinists that believing on Jesus usurps God's sovereignty is pure nonsence. Believing is called "obeying" the gospel.

    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    Believers have obeyed God, how can obeying God usurp his sovereignty? Absurd!

    Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    It is unbelievers that do not obey God. It is unbelievers who usurp God's sovereignty.

    Calvinism once again teaches the exact opposite of scripture. Calvinism teaches that folks who submit to God and obey him, believing on Jesus are usurping God's sovereignty. Ridiculous.
     
  15. tyndale1946

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    When I think of free will I have to ask myself one question and I don't think anyone will disagree on here that Adam had free will and look what happened. He plunged him and Eve and ALL mankind into SIN! That being said would God now TRUST Adam with that free will after he had sinned come to God on his own volition and live forever? That is what those who claim Free Will are saying! "MAN BY AN ACT OF WILL CAN ATTAIN DIVINITY!"
     
  16. padredurand

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    Sophistry! That all-in-caps statement is a leap Evel Knievel would not have made. I triple dog dare you to find one single proponent of Free Will that makes the claim of attaining divinity through the act of human will.

     
    #16 padredurand, Aug 9, 2014
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  17. salzer mtn

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    Man has a free will but only in the realm of his nature. God gives wicked men freedom of will to operate in the bounds of their wicked mind. Even when it comes to natural ability we are not free to do what we want to do. Most people have limitations of skill, vocabulary, strength and so on. I may want to do something or become something but I must have the power to perform. I will to be rich but do I have the resources ? I may will to be of another nationality but can I change my skin ? Take for example the animal kingdom. A animals diet is controlled by it's nature. Try feeding a cow a steak or a dog hay, they won't eat, Why ? they are controlled by their nature. Now try forcing salvation on a lost man, he will not have it. It's all foolishness to him. What will change this lost man's will ? regeneration when God takes away the stony heart and put's in a heart of flesh.
     
    #17 salzer mtn, Aug 9, 2014
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  18. tyndale1946

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  19. Rippon

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    This Calvinist also repudiates that remark by t1946.
     
  20. padredurand

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    If you feel compelled to be critical of any notion of free will take a few moments and educate yourself on how it is viewed by those who hold to it.


    Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church (1784)

    We believe man is fallen from righteousness and, apart from the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, is destitute of holiness and inclined to evil. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. In his own strength, without divine grace, man cannot do good works pleasing and acceptable to God. We believe, however, man influenced and empowered by the Holy Spirit is responsible in freedom to exercise his will for good.​

    Artice VII of the former Evangelical United Brethren (1963):

    We believe man is fallen from righteousness and, apart from the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, is destitute of holiness and inclined to evil. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. In his own strength, without divine grace, man cannot do good works pleasing and acceptable to God. We believe, however, man influenced and empowered by the Holy Spirit is responsible in freedom to exercise his will for good.​
     
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