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Freely Give You All Things...?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TCGreek, Sep 12, 2007.

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  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    In Romans 8:32 Paul says that "He[God] who did not sparek His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?"

    1. I've heard this verse used to support the health and wealth gospel, the bestowal of unlimited blessings of God.

    2. What did Paul have in mind when he referred to "all things"?
     
    #1 TCGreek, Sep 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2007
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    Psalms 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

    I have just been studying church history. The great mass of Bible believing Christians throughout the centuries have lived in poverty. They have been persecuted throughout the ages. They have left a trail of blood. That is hardly supportive of a health and wealth gospel from a historical perspective, and neither is it from a Biblical perspective when Christ admonishes us to be prepared to do the same thing. "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me."

    The good things are not found in money and materialism.
    They are found in the fruit of the spirit, in God's blessings, in answers to prayer, in sweet communion with him on a daily basis.
     
    #2 DHK, Sep 12, 2007
  3. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Romans 8:32 is definition not speaking of unlimited resources of any kind. Why do I think that? Because nowhere else in the bible is there reference to God wantonly giving His children anything and everything that they want of material, emotional, physical, and spiritual "wants".

    This verse is more of an encouragement or a comfort. If God was willingly to allow His only Son to die a bloody and grotesque death for my sins, then surely God is interested in my needs and even some of my wants. He will provide for me what HE knows that I need.....not what I, in my selfishness, childishly want.

    Jesus said that He sees every bird that dies and falls to the ground and that we are much more important to Him than birds.

    I may not drive a Cadillac, but God provides me with transportation. I may not dine in a 3-star restaurant, but God sees that I do not go hungry. There may be works that I do on this earth that go unnoticed by other Christians, but God gives me the jobs to do anyway.

    "All things" are the things that are minor in comparision to the gift of grace through Jesus Christ, but are still necessary for our life and for His pleasure.
     
    #3 Scarlett O., Sep 12, 2007
  4. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Church history could teach us so many lessons of faithfulness to God.

    2. Either these saints of church history didn't ask for the health and wealth or we must conclude that the "all things" of Paul transcends the health and wealth and points to something greater.

    3. I think you have summed it up here. And when I think of Paul, I can't see "all things" the way it is framed in the health and wealth garb. 2 Cor 11:23ff wouldn't make sense.
     
    #4 TCGreek, Sep 12, 2007
  5. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    In the context, I believe that Paul is referring back to justification and glorification in 8:30. God will justify us and he will glorify us. This is so certain that Paul states glorification with a past tense.
     
    #5 swaimj, Sep 12, 2007
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    So what do we do with the "all things" of v. 28?
     
    #6 TCGreek, Sep 12, 2007
  7. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    In the context, this seems to refer to difficult circumstances that believers face. Paul speaks of "sufferings" in verse 18 and he speaks about the results of sin's curse in the creation and in the creature in verses 19-23
     
    #7 swaimj, Sep 12, 2007
  8. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    OK, watch this, I am only going to type this once...

    The "all things" are the things he chooses to freely gives us.
    If he charged us for anything, he could not give us all things freely.

    IOWS... All the things he gives to us are free.

    Got it!! :praying:
     
    #8 tinytim, Sep 12, 2007
  9. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Could it mean that all does not mean litterally all? God does not give us all things. He gives us what He knows we need. Sometimes He knows we need to do without.
     
    #9 reformedbeliever, Sep 12, 2007
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    I think that would be the point DHK is making, which I find fitting, since we are forced to qualify "all things."
     
    #10 TCGreek, Sep 12, 2007
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Given the unity of Scripture, couldn't Paul's statement be a truth statement that applies to "all things" for the believer's good and not just limited to the context of Romans 8, but takes all of Scripture into consideration?
     
    #11 TCGreek, Sep 13, 2007
  12. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Just can't imagine that Paul makes a statement in Romans, a letter with a traceable argument, that is not contextually related to the rest of the book.

    Also, I have been working through two major commentaries on Romans in the last few weeks. I just finished reading Thomas Schreiner's commentary on chapter 8 and I am currently working through Douglas Moo's material on chapter 8. If my memory serves me, Schreiner makes the same argument I made...or...uh...maybe I'm making the same argument he made. And Schriener is a reformed guy! Can he be wrong!?!
     
    #12 swaimj, Sep 13, 2007
  13. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Yes, a statement must be understood within the book that it was written first, but that does not preclude a statement's correspondence to the rest of Scripture.

    2. For example, Rom 3:23 corresponds quite well with other Scriptures.

    3. Those are two great works, but even a reformed guy can be too narrow-minded at times.
     
    #13 TCGreek, Sep 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2007
  14. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Feel free to share any personal experiences!:laugh: :wavey: :thumbs:
     
    #14 swaimj, Sep 13, 2007
  15. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. For example, I can think of the various reformed approaches to John 3:16.

    2. But let's get back to Romans 8 "all things." You have not refuted or accepted my other arguments.
     
    #15 TCGreek, Sep 13, 2007
  16. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Outside of simply asking the questions about "all things" in Romans 8, I haven't seen your opinion as to what the phrase means. Well, you did say that it does not support the health and wealth gospel and I agree with that.
     
    #16 swaimj, Sep 13, 2007
  17. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    Now this was one funny post!!! :laugh:


    I find this chapter dealing with Salvation and not material or worldly gain. The specific question I see Paul dealing with is how much is God for us? How much is God on our side? How far is God willing to go on behalf of sinful man?

    Consider fallen man, dead with only the law for a thread of hope. In this entire chapter he speaks of the cost necessary for our ransom. So as we begin verse 32 I see Paul describing the price paid, “He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, etc…” This part of the verse is plainly about salvation.

    So what the health and wealth gospel preachers want us to believe is Paul suddenly deviates from the tone presented in the rest of this chapter to say God will also fill up your bank account (how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?)

    I don’t see how that interpretation fits the surrounding text. I think the all things God promises to give is that which is necessary for us to achieve our ultimate goal which is our sanctification, glorification and salvation.

    He later questions, “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ…” Clearly too some worldly goods or wealth would do just this. A man can’t serve two masters and money, jobs etc... has proven to be a master if we let it. I don’t see God giving us the tool that would make us fail.
     
    #17 LeBuick, Sep 13, 2007
  18. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Good analysis, so that the "all things" point to salvation and all that it entails for the believer in his everyday life.
     
    #18 TCGreek, Sep 16, 2007
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