Freewill bites the dust

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by J.D., Feb 5, 2007.

  1. J.D.

    J.D.
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    I know this will have no effect on humanists that worship at the altar of human will, potential, and ability; but here's some light from God's word for those that may have a desire to worship and honor the omnipotent God of Glory:

    John 1:13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

    Rom 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

    1 Cor 1:29 "That no flesh should glory in his presence."
     
  2. MB

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    Hi JD;
    This why I don't like the term freewill. I believe man has a will and God's will is for man to be willing but, this doesn't save man. Seems reformers have the mind set that, we who believe we must be willing to be saved. Are claiming we save ourselves. This isn't true. This is a misrepresentation of what we have explained from the beginning. It's true Salvation is all of God. It's just that reformers have there own definitions for words in the English language. Regeneration for example isn't a starting point but is the final point.
    MB
     
  3. Andy T.

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    MB, when I repented and put my faith in Christ, I was certainly willing to do so. I wanted to be saved. It was certainly me who was consciously putting my faith in Christ. But where did my "want to" come from? Did it come from my own wisdom, intellect, goodness? To me, that is the basic question. Everyone on all sides of the debate agree that anyone who wants to be saved will be saved. The question is: Where does that "want to" originate?
     
    #3 Andy T., Feb 5, 2007
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  4. Allan

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    Just let us just say for the sake of arguement you are correct.
    What pray tell is the 'WILL of the flesh' if the "WILL of man' is any and all determining and desire contrived in the will...hmmm?
    Since when does the flesh have a will of its own??

    And there's that grevious context thing again in dealing with John 1:13 and Rom 9:16 of which neither correspond to the other.
     
    #4 Allan, Feb 5, 2007
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  5. johnp.

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    Gal 5:17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. (RO 7:14 -20)

    Know yourself Alan.

    john.
     
  6. Jon-Marc

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    So what you're saying is that I didn't choose to accept Jesus Christ and didn't have any choice in the matter? That's what it sounds like you're saying. We DO have a free will to accept or reject God's gift. However, if God was not willing to save us then nothing we could do would change that. Of course, God knows who will and who will not accept Him. So, yes, in that respect it was the will of God because He sent His son to die for us. We would have been eternally lost otherwise.
     
  7. Sularis

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    Calvinists tsk tsk tsk

    I mean even for a Calvinist that's pretty lousy verse posting - at least try next time

    Here - I'll apply the same rigorous scholastic principles you did - but I'll add one more verse

    Joshua 24:15
    1Kings 18:21
    Psalms 119:112
    Romans 6:19

    Will exists - the correct term is free agency - since our will is biased towards sin due to our fallen nature - but its WAY more fun to use "free will" since it makes the Calvinists go crazy - I've actually seen one foam at the mouth - while lecturing me
    :laugh:
     
  8. Allan

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    Exactly John!
    It was kinda a loaded question.

    There are three main points that God brings out specifically that have to do with what Paul spoke of as well in relation to salvation. Romans chapter 3 states (if I may paraphrase the chapter) Man of and by himself CAN NOT save himself for he does not even know he needs saving but even IF he did, he has nothing of value to offer before God for his redemption. Salvation is of God and does not come from man due to his works (Praise God that Faith or beliefs ARE NOT works!). But I find it of note that these three aspect of man that can not save paralell three things Paul states as the crux of the sin of man which holds him firm to the world - Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the Pride of life.
    and when placed against Johns words for the gospel we see that paralell.
    In other words they were born again not due to things OF WORLD. But as the verse 12 above 13 in the Gospel of John states "...as many as received Him, it was to them He gave the power or right to be called Children of God, even to those who believe on His name." They did no works and did nothing according the estimation of man to earn salvation. God says they believed and it was ONLY THEN He gave them the right to be called the children of God. It was not according to works commonly esteemed by men of the world to such a great gift:

    1. Lust of the eyes ----------- (of blood) lineage [look who we are from]
    2. Lust of the Flesh ---------- (will of the flesh) desire of self gratification
    3. Pride of Life ---------------- (will of man) This is what I did. [works]

    God is the reason any man is saved because He must be the one to reveal truth then draw men by convicting man of their sin, of His righteousness, and of His Judgment to come. Man in light of revealed truth and because of His drawing must either believe it or reject it. God intervens for man but God has set His determined will that whosoever will believe will not perish but have everlasting life.
    Notice they are not condemed because God made them to be condemned but BECAUSE they did not beleive.
     
  9. MB

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    Hi Andy;
    From being convinced of the truth. Paul said;
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    Where does the Word come from? God!
    Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
    If it's the work of God then God is the one, not man, that does it, by convicting and convincing the man.
    God draws us to the hearing of the gospel. God uses the preacher to preach the word to us. The Word is God's own word and the hearing of it convinces and convicts but, we must be willing to listen. Being willing to hear the preacher out isn't a work for Salvation of the man. If it were the man wouldn't have been drawn in the first place. The attraction is why men listen. Still man must listen and that is up to the man.
    God uses His servants to go out in to the world to draw people in. The word Draw meaning accordding to the Strongs
    helkuō helkō
    hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
    Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.
    Is only figuratively never the less we are attracted by the Spirit.
    In my opinion Turretin was wrong about regeneration being the starting point. The real starting point is the drawing of man. Still in all of this just like the Jew we must be willing to submit;
    Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God
    MB

     
  10. MB

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    Hi Sularis;
    There is just one problem No one is free. We all have restrictions.
    MB
     
  11. Andy T.

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    MB,

    It comes down to why do some believe and others don't? I understand that only those who believe will be saved as the verses you post support. But from where does the willingness to believe, sumbit, accept, originate?
     
  12. MB

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    Hi JonMarc;
    That isn't what I said. I said man must be willing to submit. To put it another way Like you I surrendered. It was my choice to surrender but that didn't save me. What did was Jesus Christ. He said;
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    The word might is not a guarantee. Once the seed has been planted and begins to grow it has to produce fruit before we are saved. Will we believe it temporarily or permanently. Read about the sower. Matt,13:18.
    Maybe you should slow down and read what I wrote. God is willing to save everyone of us
    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    What God knows does not predestine man at all. The reason God knows what man will do is because man does it not because God made him by His knowledge.
    MB
     
  13. MB

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    Hi Andy;
    Desire comes from knowledge in order to have this knowledge man has to listen intently enough to become convinced of Christ. That knowledge isn't a guarantee the man will submit. Submission is an act of the will, and is voluntary, not free.
    I was convinced and convicted for a long time before I submitted. Though convincing and conviction is why I did. .
    It's like any decision we make it's all dependant on how our knowledge dictates our desire. We sin because we are convinced that it's what we want. We believe in Christ because we are convinced He's what we want. The convincing is God's work, once convinced we believe.
    MB
     
  14. MB

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    Hi JohnP;
    This is what this verse says;
    Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    I don't know what version you got that from but it isn't translated right.
    Not to mention every Christian wars with the flesh.
    MB
     
  15. johnp.

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    I cannot understand much of this.

    Then you must choose so your contention that it is all of God is false. It is a forked tongue you speak with. Faith and belief are the same thing but if you want to make them different Jesus answers you, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
    No one is condemned for unbelief but men are condemned already.

    What's the estimation of men got to do with it? God has laid down a condition to be met. 'Believe in Jesus' is the condition. If you meet the condition then you are given the right, if you meet the condition. That is works. Congratulations on saving yourself Alan. I see you do not know yourself still.

    RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
    Don't you like that? Do you think this is an infringment on our human rights, our free will?
    To be condemned for a thing one did is a fair cop but to be condemned because Adam pinched an apple gets your goat don't it? I mean what chance have we got if Adam blew it?

    PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

    john.
     
  16. johnp.

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    Hello MB.

    Gal 5:17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

    By what right do you claim the translators are in error? Why anyway, they say the same thing? You still can't do the things you would. Bang goes free will doesn't it?

    I never said they don't but there are some round here that think one can war before they are released from slavery. It's just One Master after another for us.

    NIV by the way.

    john.
     
  17. donnA

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    great post:applause:
    the bible says we are dead in our sin, everything we to be good is filthy rags, we do not have the ability to choose good (salvation), the bible clearly states as shown above that it is not by the will of man, but God.
     
  18. MB

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    Because they are. The Niv is not a good version in my opinion.
    No they don't I completely disagree.
    If the will has restrictions then it isn't free is it? Which is why the will is voluntary. It isn't our will but God's that saves us any way.He just doesn't save us against our wills.
    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    I must admit that it can be a struggle for the lost. Satan is always prowelling around but this war isn't with our spirit but Satan. He don't want to let go.
    I do believe man can and does volunteer and if that man after the seed is planted grows and bares fruit then the man is saved. Not by his own belief but by the faith of Jesus Christ.
    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    MB
     
  19. Andy T.

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    So why do some believe and others don't? Do the ones who believe possess some superior intellect, wisdom or goodness to believe rightly? If it all comes down to their choice, then they have reason to boast over others who do not choose Christ.
     
  20. MB

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    Hi Andy;
    How many times do you want me to answer the same querstion? If one becomes convinced they believe.
    MB
     

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