Featured Freewill or Election? Or both?

John 1:13 explains 12, and concisely explains it was NOT by human decision. Ephesians 1:19 also explains we believe only by His power. And yet again, Romans 9:16 shows it is not by human decision as well, yet you keep trying to say it IS by human decision.

 

No we dont......we have discussed these theological points, back & forth for a long time. I know your position, .....Synergism & you know mine, Monergism. Not wasting any more time on it.

 

Good point. Scripture here is plain, and there are those who see that it is not by human decision but still want to say it is.

It's not worth it when it is so plain to see and it is all God and none of man, and that is the argument they are fighting -- for man -- not God.

That said I digress.

 

All God, none of man...except concerning reprobation :laugh:

The illogic logic of determinism right there, boys and girls :thumbs:

 

You mean "Except" don't you? Or you saying you accept reprobation.....I'm not clear what you are trying to communicate.

 

You are correct, I fixed it. I do 'accept' man contributes to reprobation, btw.

 

I gotta go.....but before you start defining what DoG theology makes clear.....do me a favor & take the other side for a moment & define for me what you think Total Depravity is.....I will even give you scripture, Paul says in Ephesians 2:1 that we are “dead in trespasses and sins.” So there is a starting point for you.

See ya later.

 

Excellent point you make here, if man chooses to believe in Jesus it violates God's sovereignty (in the Reformed view), but if man chooses to go to hell it does not violate God's sovereignty.

That seems like a direct contradiction, it should also violate God's sovereignty for man to choose to go to hell. What difference does it make where man chooses to go, it is the choice that violates God's sovereignty isn't it?

How do Calvinists/Reformed explain this apparent contradiction?

 

The prodigal son was dead in sin, he was lost, his father said so. But he was able to "come to himself" and determine in himself to return to his father and ask for forgiveness.

Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Again, the prodigal son was dead in sin, he was lost, yet he was able to come to himself and return to his father asking forgiveness. This absolutely refutes Total Inability.

There is not one word to indicate the prodigal son had to be supernaturally regenerated in order to repent and ask for forgiveness in this parable.

 

Well, I enjoyed the excellent point you made. Why doesn't it violate God's sovereignty for an non elect person to choose to go to hell? Isn't that God's decision to make? How dare a man choose to go to hell!

Calvinism is utterly illogical.

 

They will tell you that Total Depravity does not mean a man is as bad as he could be.

Then they will contradict that and tell you an unregenerate man is enslaved by his sin nature. If man were truly enslaved by his sin nature then he would always be as bad as he could possibly be, he would have no other choice.

Calvinism constantly contradicts itself, they will tell you God ordains all things that come to pass, yet God is not the author of evil.

Calvin said the devil and men cannot even conceive of evil, much less carry it out unless God commands it.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.iii.xviii.html

Well, there you go, this is Calvinism from the man himself. He says the devil and evil men are "forced" to do God service. So, don't blame the devil for all the evil in the world, he is just doing what God is forcing him to do according to John Calvin.

 

I understand being a "servant" differently than most. When the scriptures say we were servants to sin, most understand that to mean that man is compelled to sin, that man MUST sin, a man is controlled by his sin nature that causes him to sin. I believe this is a total misunderstanding of what the scriptures are saying.

I understand being a servant more as being "owned" by sin, as being a possession of sin. It doesn't matter how good you are when you are owned by sin, sin only pays one wage, and that is death.

So, I do not believe scripture is teaching that a man MUST sin whatsoever, but it is teaching that no matter what you do, you are owned and possessed by sin, and sin is going to pay you the wage of death. There is no escape, except through Jesus Christ.

When we accept Jesus we are baptized into his body. When he died to sin, we died along with him. Sin no longer has a hold on us, it no longer owns us or possesses us, we are free from sin. Likewise, when Jesus rose from the dead, we rose with him. We are no longer under the law, but under grace.

That this is the meaning is also shown when Paul uses the analogy of marriage to show how we are owned or possessed by the law.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Here Paul says the law owned or possessed us as a husband owns or possesses his wife. Is a wife compelled to always obey her hustand? Hardly. :laugh:

But a woman is owned and possessed by her husband as long as he lives. But if he dies she is free from him and allowed to marry another. And Paul says now we are married to Christ. Are we compelled to obey Jesus? Again, hardly. We should obey, but we are in no way compelled.

So, I do not understand being a servant to sin as meaning we MUST sin, I understand it as being under sin's dominion. It is like being owned or a possession, we cannot get away from this ownership, except through death, which is to die with Christ.

So you see, with this concept, scripture takes on a completely different meaning than what most folks hold.

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Verse 20- There is no righteousness available to you when you belong to sin, his only wage is death.

Verse 22- We have been made free from sin, we have died with Christ and are raised with him. The gift of God through Jesus is everlasting life.

Folks make a mistake when they believe the scriptures are saying we are compelled to sin, that is easily refuted;

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Paul shows OPTION here, he says that to whom we YIELD (ability of option/choice) ourselves servants to obey, his servants we are to whom we obey WHETHER (again showing we have option) we serve sin to death, OR (again, option) obedience (to the gospel) to righteousness. And Paul shows that persons who formally belonged to sin have obeyed the gospel and have BECOME servants of righteousness.

Paul does not teach we are compelled to sin by our sin nature whatsoever, he teaches the exact opposite, that we have option and choice.