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Freewill towards salvation is not Scriptural.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Benoni, Jul 2, 2010.

  1. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    Did God admonish Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Was God willing "desiring" that Adam should die? Does God tempt anyone to do evil? "When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
     
  2. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    I hope you realize that words used in the context of normal human speech do not necessarily carry all of the intensity of the definition you might find in a lexicon.

    By your usage here, you are advocating universalism.... unless you are going to fudge on the meaning of the word "all." But if you do that, you just proved my previous point.

    For what it might be worth to you, Jesus invited the crowd to come to Him saying:

    "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Matthew 11:28-30)

    If you are willing to look at scripture carefully, I believe you will see that our freewill does play a role in our initial coming to faith in Christ. However, God is the One Who saves us if we allow Him to do so. God apparently respects our decision to receive or reject him and will not use his sovereignty to trample our will.
     
  3. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    This is the issue; they were created “not willing”. That is why God's spirit must quicken them. No one said they were not willing, I said they cannot choose God; I never said they cannot reject God it is their nature to reject God; it is the way God created them. It is called the "curse: death, I called it spiritually dead. They do not have the power, or spiritual ability to choose God willingly because they have not been quickening or drawn to choose God; it is there human, carnal nature that stops them. They are born in sin, a slave to sin and are carnal.



    1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)
    14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)
    14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
    1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)
    14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.
    1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)

    14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    So God caused the fall ?
    Therefore God is the cause of sin.
    And if God is the cause of sin, then it follows that He is cruelly playing with man, because now you will go to man's inability to come to God or to Christ because by virtue of the fall man has become a fallen creature, but then God designed man to be a fallen creature because in the first place He is the cause of the fall.

    But not only is He being cruel to man, He is also being cruel to His Only begotten Son, who had not sinned, yet He sends His own Son to die the excruciatingly painful death on the cross, in order to save sinners, whose fall He is the cause of.

    Now, if Jesus Christ is God Himself, then He is being cruel to Himself, and the whole thing becomes a sham, a play, a whimsically stupid act of and by a God who is supposed to be the Infinite source of all wisdom in the entire universe.

    But wait, there's more.

    If God is the ultimate cause of the fall, and the cause of sin, then He is no longer a Holy, sinless God, because how can evil or sin come from holiness ?

    And if God has sin, then the Holy Spirit is tainted with sin, and if the Holy Spirit is tainted with sin, then Jesus Christ, the God-man, is imperfect and not sinless and is therefore not qualified to meet the requirement of the sacrificial lamb for atonement, and if He is not sinless, then on what basis did He atone for our sin, and so, it follows we are still in that state of condemnation, but the Bible says "there is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus", but according to your doctrine, this cannot be so, so the Bible is a complete lie, and if the Bible is a lie, who then shall this poor weeping sinner rely on ?

    Please help me, brother.
     
  5. Bro K

    Bro K New Member

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    I don't have any "assumed" words; just scripture.

    Rom 10:13-14 Teaches that one must: 1. Hear 2. Believe 3. Call
    Hear: The Gospel of Christ...His death, burial and resurrection
    Believe: What he has heard
    Call: Ask God for forgiveness and for salvation. God hears his cry and saves his soul and he becomes a new man (quickenth-made alive)
     
  6. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    John 3:15-17 is one of the most mis-translated verses in Scripture.

    The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.

    John 3:15
    <9999 > should
    <9999 > not
    <9999 > perish,
    <9999 > but

    NT:9999

    9999 inserted word (x);


    9999 is far worst then "666".
     
  7. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    If you believe Jesus is God....tell me what is God's heart towards them in this passage?? You could not feel or see his heartache? "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
     
  8. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    Adam had no choice according to Romans 8:20; so who should I believe God’s Word or you?


    Romans 8:20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned

    Amplified Bible (AMP)
    Romans 8:20For the creation (nature) was subjected to [a]frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope(A)

    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
    20for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -- in hope,

    New International Version (NIV)
    20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
    Psalm 90
    1 Lord, You have been our dwelling place[a] in all generations.
    2 Before the mountains were brought forth,
    Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,
    Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

    3 You turn man to destruction,
    And say, “Return, O children of men.”
     
  9. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    Can you have a discussion without being snotty?
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    He's a cop.
    That's just his way of talking, I guess.
    He's not being snotty.
     
  11. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    The word draw us as stated in John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. The words translated "draw" and "drew" in the Greek New Testament are HELKUO and HELKO. Each of these words has the basic meaning of "compel ... .. draw," "pull," and "tug." In most instances the force which does the drawing or compelling is sufficient to cause the object of the drawing to respond fully. For example, in Jn. 18:10, it is said that "Peter having a sword DREW it..." The impetuous disciple most assuredly did not draw the weapon out of its sheath in a gingerly or wooing fashion. Nor did the sword seek to draw itself out by its own will and good pleasure! Peter didn't merely "invite" the sword to come out, in spite of any resistance the blade may have had as it dragged the leather scabbard, the muscular arm of Peter yanked it forcefully out in obedience to his will.

    The truth of the supernatural and all-powerful DRAWING of God is one of the most neglected of all the great truths of God's Word, and yet it is one of the most important. Undoubtedly the reason for its neglect is that it is repugnant to the world of unregenerate man, and professing Christians whose theology denies the sovereign and infinite grace of God. One of the chief characteristics of apostate Christendom is that it vigorously opposes any teaching of Scripture that refuses to give man the glory. Therefore any doctrine of the Bible that declares man's helplessness apart from the activating power of God is bound to arouse the ire of the adversary and his followers.
     
  12. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    Right, thats like saying "your not my Holy Spirit" smug statements.
     
  13. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    How can a man receive God if he is spiritually dead? Look around you do you see a world full of Christians or a world full of sinners. billion know the name of jesus as a curse word and not as savior. How does freewill play a role; it is not even scriptural; it is a doctrine, a creed and dogma just like “Mary mother of God”. God is not calling the whole world now, and if He was they would have no freewill or choice.
     
  14. Bro K

    Bro K New Member

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    Thanks for the response :wavey: Apparently we are using a different translation. I believe the word "perish" is key; I believe that none of God's children will perish but spend eternity with Him.
     
  15. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    It's the fact that you are not coming in a manner to discuss. Your responses have been very defensive.

    Actually, the Greek word means to drag OR draw, not just drag. In John 6, the context is clear it means draw and not drag. It references people coming to Christ by being drawn by the Father. One who is draw to Christ is one that has come to Christ, but the person comes willingly, not forced.


    Any of whom? If God is not willing that any person on earth perish, then why does God send anybody to Hell? Can He not get what He wants? Is God in heaven hoping that people will believe him but knowing that he wont' be able to get everybody even though he wants to?
    Belief is required for Salvation. We do choose to be saved. (I don't agree with the OP btw). The question is why do we choose to be saved. I don't believe we choose God by our own will without the intervention by God. I do believe that those of us that are saved chose to come to him because God changed us. Salvation is a work of God. People don't get saved because they were smart enough to get saved, but because God changed them from the inside which made them want to be saved.
     
  16. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    But in what context???


    How can they hear? They are spiritually dead? They must be quicken or drawn. If carnal man has a hearing ear please show me. He is a dead man spiritually and a dead man cannot, see, hear, touch anything for he is dead. This is even more true to a spiritually dead man.



    1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)
    14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)
    14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)
    14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.
    1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)

    14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.
     
  17. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    This is showing a contrast...not how they get saved.
     
  18. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    If we look at scripture and see how the word is used the word drawn or draggged or even forced is very appropiate.

    I already gave the following examples in Jn. 18:10, it is said that "Peter having a sword DREW it..." The impetuous disciple most assuredly did not draw the weapon out of its sheath in a gingerly or wooing fashion. Nor did the sword seek to draw itself out by its own will and good pleasure! Peter didn't merely "invite" the sword to come out, in spite of any resistance the blade may have had as it dragged the leather scabbard, the muscular arm of Peter yanked it forcefully out in obedience to his will.

    Then we have:

    When the apostle James wishes to describe the manner in which rich men forcibly drag those who are indebted to them to prison, he uses the word HELKO. In James 2:6 he writes, "Do not rich men oppress you and DRAW you before the judgment seats?" This "drawing," of course, was not with wooing or pleading! It was an act of force that absolutely took no care of the willingness of the person drawn! The poor man might resist ever so much, and he might cry and plead, but he was drawn irresistibly to the place of judgment! It is with precisely this kind of forceful drawing that the Lord Jesus is talking when He says, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW all drawn unto me!" And, thank God, they are not just drawn "toward" Him, but UNTO HIM --all the way! Because the Christ was "lifted up" on the cross of Calvary, dying on behalf of every man of Adam's race, the promise is sure, He will inexorably DRAW all men unto Himself! The divine plan calls for the Church, the body of Christ, to be drawn to Him in this age, all the living nations of the world to be drawn to Him in the next age, and the remainder of men, all who have ever lived and died upon this planet in the ages to come.
    Another example of the use of the Greek work HELKO which shows that the drawing is by force and in spite of the resistance of the one drawn, is in Acts 16:19. When Paul and Silas were vexed by the demonic slave girl, Paul cast the evil spirit out of her. Her masters saw that all hope of profit was gone, so they grabbed the two servants of Jesus and forcibly dragged them to the judges in the market place. We read: "And when her masters saw that the hope of their gain was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and DREW them into the market place unto the rulers." This was not an act in which the persons drawn delighted to cooperate. No, it was an act of force which "compelled" them to go where they would not have preferred to go! So it is with man who is spiritually dead and happy to follow the devil to hell because he prefers darkness to light. He does not "come to Jesus" of his own "free will." If he has eyes to see and ears to hear the Lord it is because God has quickened his spirit and opened his spiritual sight and unplugged his spiritual ears, as it is written, "The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them! " (Prov. 20:12).

    Still another instance in which the Greek word HELKO is translated "draw," when it refers to taking by force and overcoming all resistance, is Acts 21:30. Paul is seen in the temple at Jerusalem, and the Jews are so aroused by the presence of this apostle of Jesus that they incite the mob to lynch him if at all possible. They did not gently invite him to "please leave," nor did they "lovingly" draw him out of the place. No, they grabbed him forcibly, determined to haul him out of their holy house. The Scripture declares that "All the city was moved, and the people ran together; and they took Paul, and DREW him out of the temple, and at once the doors were shut." Of course he was rescued at this point by the Roman soldiers before the Jews could kill him for desecrating the temple by his presence. The point is that "draw" speaks of violence and force, not gentle persuasion.
     
  19. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    My dad's a retired cop (40+ years as a NYC cop). I'm a mom. Benoni was snotty. :wavey:
     
  20. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I agree Jedi. :thumbs:
     
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