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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Grasshopper, Sep 13, 2012.
I would say DeMar is much, much closer to the truth than LeHaye, Ryrie. Walvoord, Lindsey, Hagee and numerous other Rapture Ready folks!
Sadly I think dispensationalism does influence our relation with Israel. I support Israel but only because they are a democracy and a thorn in the flesh of Islam! Those of Israel must be saved as everyone else and that is through Jesus Christ.
Actually, a better response would be "Very stupid." And just who besides Gary (the pipsqueek) Demar cares what some DNC hack in Florida thinks about Bible believing Christians?
What's stupid about it? This is EXACTLY AND CORRECTLY the average Jewish perception of the typical dispy evangelical view of Israel:
Excerpt from 'Save a Jew, Save Yourself' (written by Mark Ames, a Jew)
"Ned and about 65 million other fellow American Evangelical cultists love Jews for one simple reason: They hope to bundle every hairy Jewish *** up, air-freight them to the West Bank and East Jerusalem (once those areas have been cleansed of Muslims), and use the Jews as bait to bring upon the Rapture, as kindling in the Apocalypse, the final battle that will bring Jesus back to Earth. None of this can happen until every last Jew is penned into the occupied territories and the Jews won’t get there unless the far-right runs Israel and America. Currently 65 million American cultists are using everything in their power, from prayer to politics, to make this Helter Skelter scenario come true.
Under this Evangelical "end of days" scenario, there’s some good news and some bad news, depending on which cult you belong to.
First, the good news: The Rapture be bery-bery-good to Evangelical Christians. When that day arrives, they all get sucked up to heaven body, clothes, mobile phones and all...... A few years after the Rapture comes the Apocalypse. This is the bad-news part of the Evangelical equation, for some people anyway the part of the buddy flick where the one buddy says to the other, "Sorry friend, it was either you or me."
The funny thing about The American Prophecies is that while Evans quotes extensively from Zechariah, he leaves out the one passage that every Evangelical secretly prays for:
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. (Zechariah 13:8, 9)
In other words, two-thirds of the world’s Jews, now crammed into the dusty West Bank, go to the woodchipper, and the surviving third (or perhaps as few as 144,000, depending on how you read your Bible) gets forcibly converted to Evangelical Christianity. Number nine, number nine...."
Again, this 'hack' is a Jew who articulated the typical Jewish view of evangelical Christianity:
"Siegel had told the conservative Patriot Update website that as a Jew, he was "not a fan of any religion other than Judaism." Asked if he is a fan of Christianity, Siegel responded, according to the Palm Beach Post, "No, I'm not. The Christians just want us to be there so we can be slaughtered and converted and bring on the second coming of Jesus Christ."
He continued, “They’re not our friends. They want Israel to pursue policies which are antithetical with its security and existence. The worst possible allies for the Jewish state are the fundamentalist Christians, who want Jews to die and convert so they can bring on the second coming of their Lord. It is a false friendship. They are seeking their own ends and not ours.”..."
....and the guy's exactly dead on spot, it is indeed a false friendship, 99.99% of 'you people' are far more infatuated with who might be the Antichrist (affectionately referred to simply as AC) than you are an incoming of the Jews to the kingdom of Christ.
The fact that he is a leader in the DNC is all we need to know about this individual.
Democrat party is 60% funded by Jews. You know, Jews, God's Chosen People, The Elect.
Right, and everyone in your local church, you know, those whom you consider the elect, which I'm sure includes yourself, keep God's law in their hearts and abide in his will perfectly. I'm sure.
Anyway, my Bible referes to the Israelites as the chosen people of Jehovah, a people for His name. Which is all the more reason in my opinion to praise God for his grace in that he keeps His promises and His word is eternal or we would all, every single one of us, including little ole me would be lost with no hope ever. Not because of anything I have done, did or will do.....
For The Record....
I read this article and here is what I think/believe:
#1...I am (without apology) a "dispensationalist" and I DO NOT believe that fundamentalist Christians (painting with a broad brush here) believe in 'stacking as many Jews as possible into Israel so they can be "slaughtered" so "Jesus will come". What a reprehensible and hideous idea! For the record..Jesus will come when He is ready and when the Father tells Him to (I think that is "theologically" correct:laugh...but....some REALLY bad things are going to happen before that does and a LOT of lost and some saved people will die in the process. That is not pleasant or convenient...but it is nonetheless true.
#2...The Jews are a "spiritually blinded" people RIGHT NOW (Romans 11:25 and following...)(get your Bible out and read the verses) so to take the comments of a lost, spiritually blind jew (and a democrat one at that) and reject sound Biblical teaching on that basis is NOT SMART folks.
#3...Matthew 24:21-22 does in fact (Jesus was speaking to a jewish audience in Matthew 24...check the context!) say that "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake (ISRAEL) those days shall be shortened." That simply confirms that in that time frame there will be SLAUGHTER but that it will encompass ALL FLESH...not just Israel....BUT that it would be shortened BY GOD for the sake of His Chosen one's(the "elect")...the nation of Israel (since the New Testament Church is gone...via the rapture,1 Thessalonians 13-18!). It is a Biblical event....not a "Christian" event nor a "Jewish" event. It is actually a God-ordained event among many others during that time.(The time of Jacob's trouble)
In closing...we Christians need to QUIT running scared everytime a heretic, atheist, unbelieving Jew, apostate "Christian", heathen, self-serving politician, mainstream media nerd or any other kind of Bible-rejecting wicked person throws mud on sound Bible teaching. We need to stick by God and His Word regardless of the cost. The world is rarely going to respect Biblical truth OR people who live by it in this generation. We are fast coming to the day in this country (America) where it will truly cost us something to live by our faith. We can never be "politically-correct" and be true to God.
^^^^^^^^^^To the above post ^^^^^^^^^^
To add, when did God rescind this:
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Thanks Amy...I actually meant to get that point in there...even searched out and had my Bible open to the reference but I got sidetracked down another rabbit trail:type: before I hit the "submit" button. We are ...as Christians...right and Biblically correct to love the Jews as a people....(not to mention that it is the smart thing to do) I have believed for a long time that if I had to be in a fight of any kind I would definitely want an Israeli watching my back!:thumbs: By the same token, in balance, that does NOT mean that we should necessarily endorse everything they do as unbelievers anymore than we should endorse the wrongdoing of anyone...Jew or Gentile. We ARE, as Christians, to love and bless them and support them as much as possible. God promised He would bless us if we did....God DID NOT rescind that promise. That is where Hitler, England, the godless Muslims, most of the mainline "protestant" denominations, and to some extent now the USA, all go wrong. I will acknowledge though that there may be some distinction between Orthodox Judaism and the Nation/State of Israel as a "secular" entity. It can be a complicated issue.
All that said...the promise still stands (Gen.12 2-3):thumbs:
Of course the preterist among us know this also but they think they are somehow making hay by trying to knock us off balance instead of having a Biblical/historical theology of their own. I guess you got to do what you got to do.
The covenant/reformed/replacement crowd only see judgement coming against the Jews and the really bad heathen. What we don't hear from this crowd is what's going to happen to them when Jehovah judges this American culture for it's 1.5 million aborted babies per year or the wholesale disregard of all things Biblical that is pulling this country down into the abiss. Instead, they think we are living in the Kingdom right now.
We should love the Jews because God chose them to send the Savior.
Period, no matter what your eschatological views. Jesus wept over Jerusalem. Paul said, if possible, he would be accursed if his brethren would be saved. Why the anti-Jewish sentiment that oozes out of the Reformed brethren sometimes? Oh, they say they aren't anti-Jewish, but they can't hide it in their words sometimes.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm SURE you will:tonofbricks...but I thought preterists believe that we are IN THE Millenium right now and that it began in 70AD....or have I been wrongly instructed/informed?
Actually, that would be our Amil brethren. Preterists believe everything has already taken place (in AD 70).
What a title for a move, "Back to the Future."
You are correct. The covenant reformed do also but to a lesser degree as Amy stated. I have read some reformed who write that we are now in a 2000 year great tribulation. Where I disagree with Amy, I think most preterist do think we are now in the kingdom. Since Jesus in their minds returned in AD70, what else is left since we are not in the eternal state? It's all spiritual you see.
Going back to post #5, notice how it is suggested that dispies believe that only 144,000 Jews will survive the tribulation. This is of course not true, dispies teach that out of the tribulation 144,000 Jewish witnesses will preach the gospel and will be supernaturally protected. If the 144,000 are the only ones to survive then who are they preaching the gospel to? But we know that many will come to Christ through their ministry, some of them of the sons of Israel.
Either position, reformed covenant or preterist cannot give a satisfactory explanation as to what happened to the churches of the early Christian era in the context of the Millenium; those that are apostate (ie; Roman/Eastern Orthodox) or gone altogether, many of those that were founded by the apostles.
The problem lies not with sound Bible teaching, it's with unsound convaluted dispensational Bible interpretation.
Does this mean that what Israel today wants God wants? And we Americans had better kowtow to their every whim or be cursed? Is this the way you're presenting this passage?