frustrated with arminianism

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Brother Adam, Dec 8, 2001.

  1. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have to admit I am very frustrated with Arminianism. Most other protestant denominations look down on Baptism because of the heretical teachings of this doctrine. I have had to constantly remind a group of Lutherans that Baptists do not believe that we choose to save ourselves and that we believe in salvation by faith alone.

    So I guess my question is Why arminianism?
     
  2. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Choose to save ourselves"? That is a gross distortion of Arminianism; no Arminian believes that.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    I think the charicature "Choose to save themselves" is truly apt for Arminianism. No matter WHAT the Bible says about salvation being of the Lord and that man is unable to DO anything, they keep emphasizing "CHOICE" of the "FREE WILL".

    While, of course, they still know it is the blood of Christ, shed for His own, that saves them, their emphasis on FREE WILL and MAN'S ROLE in salvaiton makes the phrase, while extremely tongue-in-cheek, more accurate than they would admit.
     
  4. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
    ISo I guess my question is Why arminianism?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Arminianism is the natural state of man: a rebellious autonomy that rejects the very idea of a Sovereign King who does as he pleases and directs the course of rivers, stars and men.

    Many pay lip service to a Sovereign God, but in reality do not want or accept a God who does as he will. The most fearful thought of man is twofold: that he does not have some good of his own in him, and that he is totally dependent on a Greater Being for his very next breath.
     
  5. EPH 1:4

    EPH 1:4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    0
    A calvinist believes in the doctrines of grace, but they do not believe salvation is 100% God. They believe salvation is 50% God and 50% a preacher, or a tract, or a gospel song. So who really believes that salvation is really 100% God? I think the Primitive Baptist are the only ones who believe salvation is all of God and none of man.
     
  6. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is my view, for what it is worth...

    A vast majority of Christians are neither pure Calvinists nor pure Arminians. They may be a variation of one or accept one more than the other, but very few Christians agree totally one way or the other.

    The reason for this is that the Bible has scripture on both sides. The Bible says that the elect are chose by God, yet Jesus says that we must put His teachings into practice.

    I don't know how anyone can seriously say that he bases his belief on what the Bible says and yet deny the elect. I don't know how anyone can seriously say that he bases his belief on what the Bible says and not believe our salvation is dependant on our fruits.

    Jesus says that there are 4 kinds of hearts that the word of God can be planted in and only one of which will not take root at all. Jesus also says that in only one of the three hearts will it grow and the person will be saved. This means that in half the kinds of hearts the word of God will take root and grow, yet these people will not be saved. This is a fact. There is no getting around it.

    Some people who accept God's truth into their hearts will not go to heaven. Why is this so? Arminians explain it one way, Calvinists explain it another(Once saved always saved people deny it ;)).
     
  7. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    "I think the Primitive Baptist are the only ones who believe salvation is all of God and none of man."

    I think that you are very incorrect. As a member of the GARBC, I can tell you that we teach it is all God.

    Lutherans believe that it is sola fida (sp?) or faith alone. Something which God gives us.

    There are many others if you would like me to give you examples, just ask and I will look them up.

    "I don't know how anyone can seriously say that he bases his belief on what the Bible says and yet deny the elect. I don't know how anyone can seriously say that he bases his belief on what the Bible says and not believe our salvation is dependant on our fruits."

    I do base my beliefs only on the Bible and I do deny that our salvation is dependant on our works. Fruits come from our salvation, we are not saved by anything we do. And yes, I do believe in election.

    "This means that in half the kinds of hearts the word of God will take root and grow, yet these people will not be saved. This is a fact. There is no getting around it. "

    You have just given us your interpertation. This is up for questioning, only the Bible is infalliable. Your interpertation is not fact.

    "Some people who accept God's truth into their hearts will not go to heaven. Why is this so? Arminians explain it one way, Calvinists explain it another(Once saved always saved people deny it)."

    All those who call upon the Lord shall be saved. That is straight from the Word of God. God so loved the world that He gave his only Son, so that all those who believe in him may not perish but have ever lasting life. Also from the Bible. It does not say all those who believe might get to go to heaven if they believe hard enough and do enough good works.

    UNP
    Adam
     
  8. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Adam,

    Jesus says:

    Matthew 7
    21
    "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
    22
    "" Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
    23
    ""And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


    Either Jesus is wrong or you are.
     
  9. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Besides Adam, I did not say why the elect had to do good works, just that they do.

    By the fruits the heart is known.
     
  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    Its either WORKS or GRACE you can't have both in an Eternal Perspective. You do the works because you have life eternal already not in order to get it. Paul said I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Galatians 2:21
    He had some pretty stong words for the Galatian brethren following in Galatians 3:1
    O FOOLISH Galatians who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath evidently set forth crucified among you?
    Paul wanted to know who turned the beautiful doctrine of grace upside down since he left them from the simplicity in Jesus Christ :eek:
     
  11. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think so. If he did, then surely he wouldn't have had a problem with people living in sin(1 Corinthians 5).

    Why would Paul warn us in Galatians 5 that people who live :eek: a certain way will not inherit the kingdom of heaven?

    Why would Jesus warn us to judge people by their fruits? Why would Jesus tell us to put his teachings into practice?

    [ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
  12. S. Baptist

    S. Baptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2001
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    0
    What's the problem with "going down the middle of the road"???

    God knows who will chose salvation, and who won't, and uses people from these "pools of personnel", both saved and lost, to perform his work and use to demonstrate his power. God doesn't have to "predestinate" any to either pool.

    No one can show where "any individual" is "predestined" to Hell/heaven, all can be shown to be the result of "their sin/faith".

    The "son of predition" could have been any of a number of "sinners", Judas "lucked in".

    God doesn't create "Robots", Love isn't the act of "Pre-Programming".

    Jos 24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve;

    The "Same God" who offer Israel a choice is the one I worship, I'm "FREE" to love him or hate him, it's my choice.

    I can't force God's "love" (GRACE) to me, and neither can/will he force my "Love" to him.

    Love (Grace) is a "Free will act", without force or obligation between two parties.

    And that's what God offers, "LOVE", between "HIM" and "WHOSOEVER WILL" return it.
     
  13. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tour,

    Thank you for that scripture, it is one of my favorites.

    Niether Jesus or I am wrong. In light of the rest of the New Testament, we know that works does not save us. Thus those who call upon the Lord in vain (they truly do not believe, such as many who have called out "God Bless America" after the attacks of September 11), are calling to God in vain, because they truly do not believe. All those who call upon the Lord who are saved will enter the kingdom of heaven. As Jesus said.

    UNP,
    Adam
     
  14. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EPH 1:4:
    A calvinist believes in the doctrines of grace, but they do not believe salvation is 100% God. They believe salvation is 50% God and 50% a preacher, or a tract, or a gospel song. So who really believes that salvation is really 100% God? I think the Primitive Baptist are the only ones who believe salvation is all of God and none of man.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Huh? I am not PB and I believe, along with Christ and the NT writers, that salvation is ALL of God. The descriptions you give resemble more Arminianism than Calvinism.

    Apparently what PBs fail to understand is that God has ordained the means of salvation (the preaching of and responding the the Word) as well as the fact of salvtion.

    Rom 9.16; 10.14-15
    16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
    14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
     
  15. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2001
    Messages:
    2,782
    Likes Received:
    0
    What are works? The whole calvinistic thing comes down to works. IS it a work to choose to accept Christ? It is something I did, once. Does that make it a work?

    Consider this parable. I am gainfully employed by a firm that pays me a paycheck. They issue the check to me. Now it so happens that, when circumstances demand it, I have a right to do work for the company above and beyond the normal 40 hours per week and then ask the firm to pay me for the overtime. So I take the check home, and I sign the check, give it to the bank, and get my money.

    Now I go back to the firm that employs me and ask for overtime, BASED ON MY WORK OF ENDORSING THE CHECK AND TAKING IT TO THE BANK. What will the firm tell me?

    They laugh me out of the office, that's what. They tell me that even if it is "work" in some since to move pen and ink over the page, it is not work as far as my employment reponsibility goes towards them. They refuse to consider that sort of thing as taking place on their time.

    Now the calvinist would say in regards to salvation that this example does not apply. Those who disagree with the calinists will say this example does apply, that it is ridiculous to count the very application for grace itself as "work".

    A matter of differing definition of terms. But oh what a tangled web we weave over differing definitions of terms! Do we have any guidance from scripture as to how to apply these things? Paul definately places the example of workers into the arena - Romans 4:4-5 "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

    Don't we see here the idea that expressing faith in God is not a work, but is seperate from what Paul calls works?

    Just a few thoughts.
     
  16. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    Paul:

    You are comparing apples and oranges. Calvinists believe man "works"; but the very work of faith is God's, not man's.

    Ephes. 2:8-9 (ESV)
    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    Philip. 1:29 (KJV)
    For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake
     
  17. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Adam,

    First you say : All those who call upon the Lord shall be saved.

    Then you say : All those who call upon the Lord who are saved will enter the kingdom of heaven.

    So which is it? All those who call upon the Lord or all those who are saved that call upon the Lord? You can't have it both ways.
     
  18. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Paul of Eugene,

    This is not what I hear from Calvinists. Everyone still does 'good works'. The question is not about 'good works'. The question is who decides that you will do the 'good works'. Do you make the decision to do 'good works'. Did your flesh decide to do 'good works'? Do you get to decide if you are apart of the elect? The question is not whether or not it happens, the question is who makes the original decision?

    If a robot does what it is programmed to do, did the robot make the decision to do the work or is it merely carrying out the program given to it by the programmer. If you believe the robot did it, then you would be an Arminian. If you believe the programmer did it, then you are a Calvinist.

    It is not the actual works at issue here, the issue is where did the desire to do the work originate?

    It is a fun question to think about. But I think how it all works is beyond our limited comprehension. According to the Bible somehow there is a little of both.

    Of course this is foolishness to man, but the Bible does say that God's wisdom appears foolish to men.
     
  19. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't understand what you are trying to get at :confused: - all those who call upon the Lord are saved. Are you trying to say that this verse includes unsaved people? That is contrary to logic.

    UNP
    Adam
     
  20. JHA

    JHA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EPH 1:4:
    A calvinist believes in the doctrines of grace, but they do not believe salvation is 100% God. They believe salvation is 50% God and 50% a preacher, or a tract, or a gospel song. So who really believes that salvation is really 100% God? I think the Primitive Baptist are the only ones who believe salvation is all of God and none of man.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm a Calvinist and believe that salvation is ALL of God. The preacher, tract, or song are simply used by God to effect His Will.

    [ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: James Adams ]
     

Share This Page

Loading...