Fundamental Baptist Fellowship (FBF) mocks KJVOs

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by bb_baptist, Apr 12, 2002.

  1. bb_baptist

    bb_baptist
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    I rarely post in this forum, but thought this article from David Cloud would be of interest to you.

    In the latest issue of Frontline magazine, the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship (FBF) mocks those who defend the King James Bible. It does this in "Dr. Ehud's Email." Ehud is said to be "an anonymous friend of Dr. Rodney Bell, President of the FBF. The article depicts KJV defenders as ignorant hicks.

    This is not a new tactic, of course. Those who defend the KJV have been slandered viciously, yet at the same time, they are said to be the sole troublemakers and dividers among fundamental Baptists. Those who defend the KJV and its Greek and Hebrew text are persistently referred to as Ruckmanites, even if they think Ruckman is dangerous and do not follow his views. They are called bitter and mean spirited; you name it. You should see my mail, if you don't believe it!

    By the grace of God, I am none of that. I do not consider the men in the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship heretics or unbelievers. I consider them brothers in Christ, but I also believe very strongly that they are on the wrong road with the Bible text and that it will result in disaster. I believe they are following the blind modern textual critics such as Bruce Metzger, and that the blind can only lead men into a ditch.

    I believe God gave one Bible and that He has preserved it and that it is not scattered mystically among all of the strange versions and perversions today.

    By the way, when I mentioned a couple of years ago in print that the FBF was holding its annual meeting in a church that uses the New International Version, and I warned them about that, I was treated like some kind of terrible heretic by that crowd. They said I was mean spirited and divisive and this and that and the other.

    Apparently, it is fine for them to make sport of me and others like me, though, and to make any sort of division that THEY deem necessary.

    The Ehud article refers to "the online fellow" and "a brief cloudburst." I wonder to whom they might be referring!

    I will admit that in light of what there is to know, I am just an uneducated hick. I have studied the Bible and related subjects for an
    average of 8 hours a day for 29 years; but the older I get, the more I realize how little I know. And, of course, I couldn't possibly know what the FBF leaders know. Why, wisdom will surely die with them.

    I will say this. If the Lord is leading me on this issue, it will be more than a brief cloudburst in spite of their mockings, because we are dealing with the eternal Word of God.

    I am a nobody, but I have enough sanctified Bible sense to know that the preserved Word of God was not hidden away for centuries in the pope's
    library and that the Scripture cannot be treated like any other book, as modern textual criticism postulates.

    The Fundamental Baptist Fellowship can have a good laugh about this debate if they please. I enjoy a good laugh as much as the next fellow, but I refuse to make light of an issue this foundational. God has exalted His Word above all His name.

    And I will not hide behind some fictional Ehud. May God help me be man enough to say exactly what I believe and about whom I believe it.


    [ April 12, 2002, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: webmaster ]
     
  2. Forever settled in heaven

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    does anyone have a copy of the Frontline article in question?

    it wld be good to put it here for review/critique by those here without access to it.
     
  3. swaimj

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    I saw the issue of Frontline in which this was published. If my memory serves me, FBF's web-site was said to be down for a re-design in that issue. I am going to the library tomorrow and will make sure of this. If I can find a link I will post it.

    As to the article itself, here is a little context. Several years back, and for many years, the magazine Christianity Today ran a column called Shemei's Dust. It was a humorous column that pointed out shortcomings in the practice of evangelical life. The column was written anonymously, though after several years it was revealed that Warren wiersbe was the author. I think Frontline is borrowing this idea (though I am sure they would not want to be associated in any way with Christianity Today) and is poking fun at the translation issue and perhaps at David Cloud. The difference is that CT used the concept to poke fun at themselves while Frontline is using it to poke fun at others. It seems that both Frontline and David Cloud like to laugh, but neither likes to laugh at themself. Given this, they are certain to offend each other, all unnecessarily. What a shame!
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    What is more remarkable is that David Cloud feigns offense at an "anonymous caller" and states that he will not hide behind such tactics. He knows good and well that many godly and dedicated men have confronted him about his style and material for years face to face, and with names firmly attached. I know for a fact that one such host of a recent FBF meeting, having been uselessly slandered and attacked by Cloud, volunteered to meet Cloud anywhere to discuss these issues in person but was refused, and I believe it was by no response from Cloud. Clearly, Cloud wants to talk loudly when he can do so without personal confrontation but will not face up to the facts of what he is saying about some issues.

    What is frustrating is that a lot of Cloud's stuff is good stuff. He has some good info on a lot of things. But the Bible Version issue is not one of them.
     
  5. DocCas

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    I believe the above is patently untrue.
     
  6. Forever settled in heaven

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    what are some of the good things? i seem to recall that he did a pretty good job tracking apostates.

    one possible reason Cloud is messed up on versions is his over-dependence on n influence by D.A. Waite-esque arguments. this comes thru in his gushing endorsement of Waite's Defined KJB, where Waite (Jr's) scholarship ("hundreds of hours of study") is uncritically elevated above other Bibles with definitions in the margin. Cloud's other works also betray this reliance.

    for a whiff of Waite's "Fourfold Superiority" brand of KJBOism, check out sites like: http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/index1/kjv/4fold.htm.

     
  7. Siegfried

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    I appreciate his strong stand on the repentance/Lordship salvation issue. OTOH I've seen him slander a man, admit he didn't have the right information, and then go right back to attacking him with more mis-information.
     
  8. Forever settled in heaven

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    now that's a pretty serious allegation, i'd say.

    wld u have any evidence to back it up?

     
  9. Pastor Larry

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    Which do suspect is untrue? The story about Frontline? That can be verified by looking at the magazine.

    The information about Cloud's being confronted? That can be verified by looking at any number of resources on the Bible version issue.

    The fact that Cloud slandered and misrepresented a man's position and then called him a heretic? I have a series of four emails exchanges (8 letters) in my inbox right now that I have just reread. This exchange took place in the fall of 2000 on the following dates 9/24, 10/4, 10/6, 11/30: To quote from the last of these emails:



    It is not patently untrue. Contrary to your opinion, I don't just pop off in here. When I say something, I have evidence to back it up because when you make statements like this, your credibility goes on the line and I don't want to lose mine by making unfounded statements that cannot be backed up.
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Yes, Go read Cloud's original statement about Kevin Bauder and his trip to a conference at Beeson Divinity School. When confronted on this issue, he admitted he didn't have all the information, then essentially repeated the same type of unfounded charges he originally gave.
     
  11. swaimj

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    Frontline can be accessed at www.fbfi.org However, it does not appear that the article in question is posted yet. It did not appear on the "current issue" page and I was unable to find it using the search engine.
     
  12. Squire Robertsson

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    RE: Finding the article in question online
    I believe the following may be some of the problem:</font>
    • Current issues are only available to subscribers with a Frontline provided password</font>
    • The magazine doesn't have a Webmaster as good as ours.</font>
    I read the article in question. Yes, it's cornball. Yes, it maybe satirical. And so. I offer this for your consideration. The magazine until this article never explicitly took on its critics on this matter. It has dealt with the issue from time to time but never its critics. And when it did, it handled it in a fairly light manner.
    Hoping to shed more light than heat,
    Robertsson
     
  13. Forever settled in heaven

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    sorry, but all i cld find for "Cloud" and "Kevin Bauder" on Google was this statement by Mrs D.A. Waite:

    "Kevin Bauder takes off in several areas against truths that the DBS stands for. In fact, he wields his sword against my husband's views several times--sometimes mentioned Dr. Waite's name and sometimes not. Dr. Waite is often footnoted, yet often his research is not footnoted. (But that's becoming a popular thing for book writers to do these days in this country, the Far East, and abroad.) My husband says that much of the book is a rehash (my words) of Central Seminary's former book, The Bible Version Debate."

    if Cloud's statement is on the Net, i'd apprec the URL. otherwise i'll havta take ur word on it [​IMG]

     
  14. Ernie Brazee

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    What is the old adage? Through a rock into a pack of dogs and the one that yelps is the one hit.

    Lot of yelps in here. Been reading Cloud for years, what he is guilty of is exposing truth about so called respected men of god who deny the truth or change the Bible to fit their beliefs.

    Ernie
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    I haven't been reading Cloud for that long and in the short time I have been reading him I have seen him slander good godly men and tell outright lies and misrepresentations about the Bible version issue.

    The yelps in here are from some of us who believe truth is worth defending and are not willing to let falsehood be unconfronted in the realm of ideas.
     
  16. Chris Temple

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    Just a quick perusal of Cloud's website shows everything that is wrong with modern fundamentalism: 1)Extreme separatism, 2) Extreme Legalism, 3)anti-Calvinism, 4) anti-intellectualism (anti-seminary) and 5) King James Onlyism. Fundamentalism has come far from its origins of biblical fidelity and has become a caricature of itself.
     
  17. Ernie Brazee

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    TRUTH!!!

    There are some here who have no idea of turth, all they know is what they have been taught in seminary or Bible College. No time is spent in the word of God and prayer to learn the truth. All that is used to substiate an idea is quotes from someones book. The only book that counts is the Bible, and the only way to understand the Bible is to know the quthor of the Book. This is the problem a lack of knowledge of who God is and why he created man. It's in the book read it.

    You attack David Cloud for doing what many here are guilty of.

    Ernie
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    I would modify this to say some of modern fundamentalism. And we won't claim them as a legitimate part of historic fundamentalism.
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    [And some don't even have that much. That is most unfortunate. There is no glory in being ignorant of biblical truth. There is no shame in pursuing it with all of our being.

    And you have hit the nail on the head with regard to Cloud and the version issue. He does not deal in the Scriptural doctrine of inspiration to any substantive degree or in the historical realities of textual preservation. He has listened to a few guys, has one of the largest libraries on the Bible version issue of any man alive and has spent 28 years of 8 hour days studying these books. And you believe him while accusing us of only quoting men who read books ... Simply amazing the lengths to which some will go to defend a position.

    Absolutely true without a doubt. I think we need a greater knowledge of God. I think we should be pursuing knowledge of God through the study of Scripture. Unfortunately that rarely happens.
     
  20. Chris Temple

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    Yes, I was distinguishing between historic fundamentalism and the "modern" (circa 1940s forward?) version of many. Cloud would have no association with a J. Gresham Machen, for instance, and probably not even Baptists J. Frank Norris, B. H. Carroll, nor Noel Smith, none of who were KJV only.
     

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