Fundamentalism's Bloody Homeland for Jews

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by KenH, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. KenH

    KenH
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    Fundamentalism's Bloody Homeland for Jews

    by Gary North

    I have previously written about this highly embarrassing, and therefore actively covered up, aspect of modern fundamentalism, namely, the movement's substitution of Jews for Christians as the victims of a supposedly future (but actually past) "Great Tribulation." Fundamentalists actively support the State of Israel, despite their belief that by doing so, they are helping to lure millions of Jews into a horrible death: "Holocaust II." They do so for a reason: they expect to escape death personally. This is a powerful incentive.

    "The Great Tribulation" is the phrase used by fundamentalists to describe a future time of persecution and slaughter of the Jews. By "fundamentalists," I mean defenders of the theological system, first proclaimed around 1830, known as premillennial dispensationalism. This is a late variant of Christian eschatology, i.e., the theological doctrine of the last things or last times. There are three basic views: premillennialism, amillennialism, and postmillennialism. (On this subject, see my article, "Millennialism and the Progressive Movement," published in The Journal of Libertarian Studies [Spring 1996]).

    The prefixes pre-, a-, and post-refer to the timing of the time period that Christians believe will precede God's final judgment. Premillennialists say that Jesus will return to set up a literal 1,000-year period of peace and justice, in which He will rule here on earth through an international bureaucracy of Christians. This view has been held throughout church history. The post-1830 dispensational variant is the view of the famous Scofield Reference Bible (Oxford University Press, 1909, 1917), most Southern Baptists, most Pentecostals, and members of virtually all independent Bible churches. Amillennialists think that the millennium is spiritual and allegorical, and it will have no literal political fulfillment in history. This is the view of Dutch Calvinists, Lutherans, and most Roman Catholics. Postmillennialism proclaims a period of peace and justice during which most of the world's population will be Christian. This was the view of most Puritans in the first half of the seventeenth century, prior to the restoration to the British throne of Charles II in 1660. It was also a predominant view of Scottish Presbyterian in the seventeenth century and in its American branches until after the American Civil War. Jonathan Edwards is the most famous American postmillennialist.

    Jesus did teach of a coming tribulation (Matthew 24, Luke 21). He called this period "the days of vengeance" (Luke 21:22). He said specifically of the timing of this period of terror and slaughter, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matthew 24:32-34).

    While there has been much debate as to the timing of the fulfillment of this prophecy, the dominant view in church history has been that this prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D., when the Roman army surrounded Jerusalem, crucified thousands of Jews who tried to escape, and took the city. Two Roman soldiers then burned the temple, according to the post-war court historian for the victorious emperor Vespasian, the Jew Josephus. A short introduction to this interpretation is David Chilton's 1987 book, The Great Tribulation.

    - rest of article at www.lewrockwell.com/north/north222.html
     
  2. Pastor Larry

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    I think the embarrassing thing is that someone writing this article doesn't know what they are talking about. It is not the fundamentalists who made a substitution. Scripture has taught for more than 2 millennia that the Jews would have an end-time conflict. Fundamentalists are hardly the first to hold that position. Public writing should demand more than a computer and a phone line. You should have to know what you are talking about. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  3. Scott Cline

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    Amen Bro. Larry. We've all heard the postmill foolishness before, but to claim that WE'RE the ones making a substitution...?!?! They cut "Israel" out of their NT and paste in "Church", yet WE'RE the ones substituting by simply reading "Israel" when it says "Israel." However, it ought to be noted that Gary North is an extreme example of a Covenant Theologian- he is a predominate figure in the "Reconstructionist" movement of extreme reformed theology.
     
  4. KenH

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    Here is some more:

    "The reference to God’s turning His hand against the little ones may refer to His allowing the persecutions against Jewish Christians in the Book of Acts. The scattering of the sheep also seems to refer to the scattering of the Jewish nation when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in a.d. 70. Just as the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24-25; Mark 13; Luke 21) telescopes prophecies of the scattering of the Jewish nation fulfilled in a.d. 70 with those to be fulfilled in the last half of the future Tribulation period, so Zechariah here combines into one focus the same two periods and scatterings of the Jewish nation. Thus Zechariah 13:8-9 probably will see its final and complete fulfillment in Israel’s dispersion in the Tribulation (cf. Rev. 12:6, 13-17). At that time two-thirds of the Jewish nation will be struck down and perish, but the surviving remnant will be restored, at least for the most part, to their covenant relationship with the Lord." - Walvoord and Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary

    And...

    "Louis Goldberg, at that time professor at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, described the future Jewish holocaust in his book "Turbulence Over the Middle East," published in 1982: "As we view the darkness in Israel yet to come, it is with a wrench in one's heart concerning what is yet to happen in the land... The prophet Zechariah described the holocaust in the land of Israel: `And it will come about in all the land, declares the LORD, that two parts in it [the land] will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it, And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested '

    "The dire proclamation is that two-thirds of the land's population will perish. This means that of the three-million population today in Israel, should this horrible event take place now, two million will die because of the political Antichrist's fury against Israel, in exact accordance with Satan's desires."

    David Brickner, executive director of Jews for Jesus, makes the same prediction of doom, saying that this slaughter will come about as a reaction to Jewish attempts to rebuild their Temple in Jerusalem: "A full two-thirds of the population of Israel will perish in the ensuing conflict, according to Zechariah 13:8. The hope of the Jewish people in seeing the glorious Temple rebuilt will, in fact, lead to their greatest calamity and suffering." (From the book "Future Hope, A Jewish Christian Looks at the End of the World," 1999).

    So is Jews for Jesus warning Jews to get out of Israel, or not to move there? On the contrary, books by David Brickner and Moishe Rosen contain material encouraging Jews to move to Israel, and supporting the radical groups that are trying to build a temple for animal sacrifices in Jerusalem, even though they believe this activity will trigger the massacre of millions of Jews.

    One of the greatest dispensationalist authorities, John Walvoord, is in full agreement that most of the Jews have to die. In his book "Israel in Prophecy," published in 1962, he says, "According to Zechariah's prophecy, two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish, but the one third that are left will be refined and be awaiting the deliverance of God at the second coming of Christ." (This is a strange sort of "deliverance," that does not happen until two-thirds of the rescuees are dead!)

    "Left Behind" novelist Tim LaHaye says in his "Prophecy Study Bible," "Prior to Israel's conversion, Zechariah predicts that two-thirds ('two parts') of the Jewish people in the land will perish during the tribulation period. Only one third of the Jewish population will survive until Christ comes to establish His kingdom on earth."


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    web page

    The obvious fact that dispensationalists are urging Jews to return to Israel so that, according to their own teaching, 2/3 of them can be slaughtered while dispensationalists claim they personally escape all of this, should give a solid reason to any thinking, caring person to look with suspicion at the unBiblical, anti-Semitic teachings of dispensationalism.
     
  5. Grasshopper

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    The obvious fact that dispensationalists are urging Jews to return to Israel so that, according to their own teaching, 2/3 of them can be slaughtered while dispensationalists claim they personally escape all of this, should give a solid reason to any thinking, caring person to look with suspicion at the unBiblical, anti-Semitic teachings of dispensationalism

    Very good. Yet it is the full and partial Preterist who are slandered. No wonder the Arab world hates us. The christian west says no matter what we side with Israel. We should side with Israel for the right reasons, not because it fits a false escatological system.
     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Just a clarification:

    not all fundamentalists who support Israel do so because of pre-mill doctrines. I would be a prime example of this since I am not a Pre-miller. I support Israel for much the same reasons as Alan Dershowitz, a liberal atheist Harvard Law Prof. does. Because I think their fight against terrorism and for their right to exist is just and right.

    Back to your regularly programmed smear campaign.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    Come on Ken, you know this is a load of trash. You know better than this. If you don't, then you shouldn't be posting about it. You know good and well that dispensationalism is not antisemetic or unbiblical. You can disagree without stooping to that level. While you might not be persuaded by the exegetical arguments in its favor, it is the height of ridiculousness to pretend that they do not exist.

    If you study the tribulation, you will find that it is not just the Jews who are affected and it is not just those living in Palestine. In deed, the whole world is affected.

    I have come to the conclusion that these straw men arguments are put forth by people too lazy to do simple reading. It is am absolute embarrassment that this kind of trash is taken seriously. What has happened to Christianity when people can be so cavalier with the word of God while professing to believe it. As I say, you don't have to agree with dispensationalism. But it is simply wrong to say things that you are know are not true. You can find some very easy to read resources that will help you understand this. There is no need to be uninformed.
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Ken,

    I am curious as to how important it is to you that a Christian reject anti-semitic teachings and statements based on our previous conversations about Pat Buchanan. Do you now also reject the anti-semitic teachings and propaganda of Pat Buchanan as well?

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000830

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. KenH

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    Your side on this very board has claimed we non-dispensationalists are anti-Semitic and don't believe God's Word. If your side is going to dish it out then your side is just going to have to take it when your side's bluff is called, especially when I can quote your own side's adherents. Just read what they have written. You can't deny they have written these things. :cool:
     
  10. KenH

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    I reject any kind of anti-Semitism. And if Pat Buchanan or you or a dispensationalist or anyone has ever said or written anything anti-Semitic I reject any such comment. :cool:
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    I haven't made that charge. If it was made, it shouldn't have been made. I have seen it to my recollection and I have seen most of the threads on this topic. But I may have missed it.

    Quote it; go ahead.

    The reality is that the Scriptures teach that all those who reject the Messiah will suffer the consequences. I don't know of any dispensationalist who rejoices in that happening. But if a Jew or anyone else suffers in the Tribulation, it will be because they rejected the Messiah. It will not be because of some sinister plot on the part of the dispensationalists to send them back for slaughter. That is so ridiculous it's laughable. The only problem is that you take it seriously and expect others to. I have seen no dispensationalists say any such thing as you have said here. I think you know the truth. You have listened to North and some others who have a vested interest in their position and are willing to say some crazy things to make it stand.

    As for believing the Bible, I have never said that a posttrib doesn't believe the Bible. I think they are very inconsistent in their interpretation. Amills and postmills are much closer to "not believing the Bible" since the promises of God for an earthly kingdom and the restoration of the Jews are explicit promises. However, even there I will stop short of saying the don't believe the Bible and say only that they are inconsistent and are very close to compromising the truthfulness of God inasmuch as they have God making promises he never intended to keep as he made them.

    The bottom line is that North is a very poor exegete. He is a theonomist if I am not mistaken. Theonomists are not known for their handling of Scripture. They are better known for their philosophy. I would rather be a theologian. This article doesn't deserve the time it took you to post it here.
     
  12. KenH

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    As I said, just read the quotes I posted of what the commentators who support your position have written about 2/3 of the Jews being slaughtered.

    Now if you had a friend and he was planning on going somewhere to live where there was a 67% chance he would be killed, wouldn't you try to persuade him not to go(and I am not talking about the military or missionaries)?

    Yet, we see dispensationalists wanting to see Jews move to Israel, while at the same time they believe that 2/3 of these people they want to see move to Israel are going to be slaughtered.

    Why are dispensationalists not making every effort to try to convince Jews not to move to Israel? Why are dispensationalists not making every effort to try to convince Jews living in Israel to move out of there so as to avoid being slaughtered? Jesus warned the Christians in His Olivet discourse about what would happen in 70 A.D. and those that heeded his warning left and avoided being slaughtered by the Roman army.

    The inconsistency of dispensationalists is glaring.
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    Then you shouldn't have any trouble putting these quotes out here in context so we can see what they are saying.

    When you consider the context of what is being discussed, you would share the gospel with him and encourage him to turn to Christ for salvation. That is how you avoid this bloodshed. As I already said, the bloodshed will be worldwide. It won't matter whether you live in Palestine or not. If you read you Bible, you will see. As I said, you have made up a straw man argument.

    The effort we are making is to see them accept Christ as their Savior. You are confused. You think where they live is the issue. The issue is what they do with Jesus Christ. The Scriptures make this clear.

    Because that is not the issue. The issue is their acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah and their subsequent inclusion in the church.

    What is more glaring to me is how you seem not to know what you are talking about, or at the very least are misunderstanding the implications of the issues. I am a died in teh wool dispensationalist who knows what dispensationalism is and believes who says without doubt that you are mistaken. You don't get to tell us what we believe. I, as a dispensationalist, tell you that I have never seen anyone (dispensationalist or not) encourage Jews to move to Israel so that they can be slaughtered. If you know someone who has said that, then put it out here and let us see it.
     

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