Fundamentalist Creationism?

The point of the previous discussion was to address your point.

As Pastor Larry has shown there are no Bible principles that endorse inserting undefined gaps of time into a timeline with a numeric value assigned. (And I think we can all agree that Pastory Larry was really looking hard to find even one case of it).

This means that you are left with the "justification" in Daniel 9 of inserting a gap based solely on the events that you choose when interpreting the text.

Using that model - you could "choose events" in Genesis 1:1 that do not coincide with the 7 day timeline given in Genesis 1:2 through 2:3. So "if" you could be pursuaded that such an approach was acceptable in Daniel 9, then you could use that same model in Genesis 1:1.

However, my view is that it simply doesn't work - anywhere in all of scripture since it voids the numeric values given to the timelines. Hence we do not find any in all of scripture employing gaps.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So Bob, when was the 70th week of Daniel and explain to us the covenant and its breaking. Explain to us why Paul references the same events in 2 Thess 2 and why John talks of the same events in Revelation 13. Explain why the events of Daniel that Paul and John reference are not what Paul and John reference.

I cannot for the life of me understand how you are missing this. It seems so simple. I have not simply repeated my point, I have demonstrated from the text that prophecies often include gaps. You hang on "timelines that include numbers" and define your case in such a way as to win the debate. Yet I don't accept your premise based on exegesis, theology, and history. I don't know of many who do. It is too far fetched. It simply doesn't work.

Since you think that the 70th week happened in the fourth decade of the first century (c. ad 33-40), explain to us the "firm covenant with the many for one week," the "middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;" "the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

You should be able to identify these for us.

 

Right after the 69th week of Daniel 9. Just like the 70th year of Daniel 9:1-4 is right after the 69th year of Daniel 9. Just like the 175th year of Abraham in Gen 25:7 comes right after the 174th year of Abraham - just like the 400th year of the 400 year prophecy of Gen 15:13 comes right after the 399th year.

I am sure we all see a pattern here.

Your point does not rest on exegetically showing that numeric timelines DO contain gaps in scripture as you propose for ONE of Daniel 9's timelines. IT rests instead on the "interpretation" that you choose for the 70th week.

It is a curious case where the gap is inserted to "Fit" your interpretation - and not because exegesis of the chapter OR of similar numeric timeline prophecies provides any support for inserting gaps.

Ahh - here is the focus on "interpretation". Good - lets see if the NT texts above are concrete examples of a clear reference to Daniel 9.

#1. There is no mention of any of the entire chapter of Daniel 9 anywhere in the entire chapter of 2 Thess2 or in the entire chapter of Rev 13.

#2. Identifying Daniel 9 as one of a zillion things that are also not mentioned in those to chapters is simple - the 70 weeks (the 490 year timeline is not there) the Messiah is not there nor is the covenant of the 70th week mentioned there.

As I show above - you have yet to do anything other than "assert" that 2Thess2 and Rev 13 are making direct quote/application of Daniel 9.

However we both know that at best a speculative narrative could be assigned to those NT chapters - a narrative thatmust itself inject the missing quotes and references for Daniel 9 since they are missing in the text.

Romans 10:18 is an excellent example of a text that DOES provide a direct and compelling reference to Ps 19:4 - but 2Thess 2 and Rev 13 provide no such reference to Daniel 9.

A compelling case can easily be made that Rev 13 DOES start out with a composit beast that does appear to be a reference to the 4 beasts of Daniel 7 but it appears to list them in reverse order.

However this is all rock solid conrete exegesis - it does not rely on pure speculation to make its case. The unique images and words of the OT texts are IN the NT examples provided.

That is simply not the case for the attempts to get REv 13 and 2Thess2 to address events inside the 490 year timeline of Daniel 9's 70 weeks.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You have been asked to give even one example of a timeline that LIKE the timeline in Daniel 9 provides a numeric value to the span of time identified. One exactly like the other timeline in Daniel 9 - the 70 years of Jeremiah that Daniel addresses in Dan 9:1-4 or Genesis 15 - where the number is placed on the timeline making it a span of time - of the time specified by the number.

Gaps just can't be made to work in those cases and you have not found a case where it does work.

You have not found a single timeline prophecy with values assigned as in the case of Daniel 9 - where gaps work. And yet you think it is "Far fetched" not to "assume" the right to insert gaps into just One of Daniel 9's timelines.

OR to re-word that "Since you think that the 70th week is the next week after the 69th week - just like the 70th year of Daniel 9:2 follows the 69th year - then the entire 490 year prophecy in Daniel 9 ends sometime in the first century A.D. - given that the starting events of Dan 9:24-27 are around the time of Ezra and Nehemiah"

And then I could reply "so far so good".

Hmm - I would have to note that the start of the 70th week (recall that this would be at the end of the 69th week) brings us to "The Annointed One" - "Messiah the Prince" Dan 9:25

- so hmmm lets see
a firm covenant explicitly identified in the NT around the time of "Messiah the Prince". No guessing - no faking and no inserting into the NT text -- hmm That's a hard one.

(of course you already know which one I am going for - the obvious one in the NT)

Matt 26:28 "This is My blood of the Covenant", which is shed on behalf of Many for the forgiveness of sins"

1Cor 11:25 "This cup IS the New Covenant in My blood".

Ok - next.

Hmm that is another really hard one.

So -- same rules? No guessing? No faking? No inserting into the NT text? It must really say that he puts a stop to sacrifices??

(Ok - so you also already know the obvious one for this one as well - I knew it!).


Heb 10:4 "IT is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins"
Heb 10
9 then He said, "" BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.'' He TAKES AWAY away the first in order to establish the second.
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16 "" THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,'' He then says,
17 "" AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.''

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 26, 2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Surely you are kidding Bob. Please tell me that you haven't just equated Jesus Christ the Son of God with the Antichrist.

This is so patently absurd as to make me think you are playing games. I hope I am right about that.

The covenant is made by the "prince who is to come," not the Messiah who has been cut off. The covenant is made after the Messiah has been cut off at the end of the 69th week. The covenant marks the beginning of the 70th week. But since it is after the 69th week, there is no way that you can identify the crucifixion of the Messiah as the making of the covenant. Furthermore, the covenant is broken; that would ludicrous is you think the covenant is the new covenant. The New covenant is never broken. Furthermore, it is broken in the middle of the 70th week, some 3 1/2 years after it is made, when sacrifices have been cut off.

So it is impossible to hold your position ... well I guess it is not impossible if you disregard what the text says to support your view.

I can't imagine you wrote the above post with a straight face.

[ November 27, 2002, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Step 1 -

Note that the term antichrist does not occur in Daniel 9 or in 2Thess 2 or in Rev 13 as much as one might "wish" that it did.

Step 2. -
Note that when you choose your own "interpretation" for Daniel 9 - there is no point in "mixing" yours with mine. They should be viewed as two separate models. I did not equate Christ with "antichrist" in my note above - you did by mixing in your own interpretation for the symbols used as if the text had actually said "antichrist" where you needed it to say it.

It is not "essential" that we accept the other persons interpretation, but it is basic to the study that we at least distinguish between our own views and the views of the alternate POV rather than "mixing the two" as you have done in evaluting the opposing POV.

It is instructive that "you say" "after the 69th week" there is a gap and then a 7 year span of time at the end of the age. And yet can find no other timespan prophecy where "gap injection" is remotely plausible

In the text of Daniel IT says "that AFTER the 69th week" are the events of the 70th week - including the death of the Messiah - which by all accounts DID happen after the 69th week - in that next 7 year segment of the timeline.

And so - it is shown explicilty that we simply can't insert gaps into timespans in the Bible - not in Genesis 1 and not in EITHER of Daniel 8's TWO timepsans. The 70 years (Dan 9:2) and the 70weeks.

=============================================

But here is another question for you - why object to Dan 9 holding it's integrity for BOTH timespans?

What do you lose by simply staying consistent with the text as I have shown above?

You already believe that Messiah the PRINCE (as Daniel 9 states ) came at the end of the 69th week (483 years) AND that this was the first advent of Christ - the ministry of the Messiah as promised in scripture.

You arlready believe that He died in that 7 year span following the start of Christ's ministry and that Daniel identifies that with events AFTER the 69th week.

You already believe that all the sacrifices ended at the cross - exactly 3 and 1/2 years after the start of Christ' ministry AND that He is the promised PRINCE of Isaiah 9:6 AND of Daniel's own prediction regarding "Messiah the Prince".

You already admit that AFTER the 69 weeks IN that next 7 year time period - the Messiah was "cut off" - crucified.

You already blieve that God quit using the Hebrew nation church as His form of "Royal Priesthood" in that 7 year period?

So what do you lose?

The tribulation?
Christ predicts the tribulation period in Matt 24 without corrupting the timespan of Daniel 9.

The rapture?
We already have the rapture predicted in 1Thess 4 without corrupting either timespane of Daniel 9.

So what is there to lose by staying with sound exegetical consistent use of BOTH timespans in Daniel 9?

Why the reluctance here?

The beauty of sticking with the consistent exegetical view that retains the integrety of BOTH time sapns in Daniel 9 - is that not ONLY is it much easier to show from scripture - but ALSO we have no "open door" for "gap theories". There is no basis for injecting a gap into the timeline of Gen 1 based on the complete abandon with which some choose to inject gaps into one of the timespans of Daniel 9.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 28, 2002, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

As the old saying goes, "A rose by any other name still smells just as sweet." In this case, the theological/textual description is clear. There should really be no question.

I didn't mix interpretations. I compared what you said with what Daniel said. Daniel said that teh covenant would be made with the "prince who is to come," not with the Messiah as you said. He furthermore said that the covenant would last for half a week (3 1/2 years) and then be broken; the New covenant will never been broken. Therefore, your position is in direct contradiction to the text, no matter what else might be the case.

Again, patently false.

So where is the prince of the people that is to come and the prophecy made with Daniel's people? You have yet to show any plausible fulfillment for it.

 

The text gives two aspects of the coming Messiah - the first one is identified at the END of th 69 weeks (possibly at the very end - or at the start of the 70th week - you can have it either way you prefer).

Notice that it is FROM the staring point in Ezra/Nehemiah's day "UNTIL Messiah the PRINCE". There will be 483 years - not 482 and not 484 - but 483 this IS ON a boundary.

Notice the event - It does not say "UNTIL the DEATH of the MESSIAH" rather it is saying that you are STILL WAITING for the Messiah UNTIL you get to that point. And indeed - they waited - 483 years - all 483 of them. Not 482 and not 484. The Messiah came - and was annointed for His work exactly 483 years FROM the time specified. They would have to wait until then for the Messiah.

And then we get ANOTHER detail about the Messiah - not just His coming - but ALSO the Specific event of His death -

So in ansewr to the question about what happens AFTER the 69 weeks (7 + 62) weeks we have..

Now here you argue profusely that this is not AFTER the 7+69 but it is within that time span at the END of it - but surely not AFTER it as scripture says.

I find your insistence on that point a bit confusing.

The text explicitly moves us to the point AFTER the 69 weeks "AFTER the 62 (7+62) the Messiah will be Cut Off". This is the last set of 7 in which this takes place since there are NO other segments "AFTER the 69th week" other than the 70th week.

By insisting that it is "NOT AFTER the 69th week" you are not being consistent with the text.

How does one miss that point?

IN Christ,

Bob

[ November 28, 2002, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Dan 9
26 "Then AFTER the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.


The coming Prince in vs 25 is "Messiah the Prince" no other prince is identified - so when we see a reference to the "prince who is to come" right after we are told that the Messiah is the Prince that is coming in 483 years then the choice is getting less difficult to say the least.

No contrasting language is used in the text.

However more to the point - the text does not give us any single event the STARTS AT the 69/70th week boundary OTHER than the coming of the Messiah the Prince. All we know about events BEYOND that 69/70 boundary is that AFTER the 69th week (so that would be sometime IN the 70th week or I suppose you could argue it beyond the 70th week and still qualify as AFTER the 69th week) "the Messiah is cut off".

We also know that "AFTER the 69th week" the PEOPLE of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

So the events listed IN the text that happen ON (and not merely sometime "after" a boundary) are

#1. Messiah the Prince comes. Vs 25 (this is the Only event listed as being right ON a week boundary).

#2. The sacrifices are stopped in the MIDDLE of the 70th week.

That's it - no other "Exact boundary" events are listed.

So what happens "AFTER" the 70th week starts - After the 69th week ends?

#1. The Messiah is Cut off (vs 26)
#2. The sacrifices END
#3. The People of the Prince who is to come destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Even the Messiah being cut off - is narrowed down only to the point "AFTER" a week boundary - not "on" it.

=========================================
Dan 9
27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;

All agree that the significant historic Gospel even that happens 3.5 years AFTER the coming of the Messiah - the start of His ministry - is that His death pays the debt pointed to by all the sacrifices - they cease to have value - the shadows END.

But what if we look at two other ways to view this prediction of Daniel?

Alternate A. He is predicting the sacrifices ending in 70A.D - He is focused on the stop of the defunct sacrifices of an apostate jewish nation church. One hardly knows whether to call that a "Ceasation" a "bad thinng".

Althernate B. (even worse). Daniel predicts that the defunct sacrifices are stopped at some 7 year period at the end of time - 2000 year AFTER Christ made them void and about the same amount of time since Rome had them stopped.

This is the worst of all since it appeals to the "big point" as being that of Stopping something that had already been stopped by Rome for 2000 years. Stopping sacrifices that Christ had already made void 2000 years ago. Re-stopping the shadows is the focus INSTEAD of the work of the Messiah 3.5 years after His ministry started in dying on the cross and having the shadow sacrifices meet the antitype.

It can hardly be missed that from Daniels point of view the work of the Messiah on the cross HAD to be far more of a significant future event to mention rather than stopping defunct sacrifices that would have ALREADY been stopped for 2000 years by both Christ on the Cross and the army of Rome.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is creationism?

 

The point I have been making is that there are no Biblically sound ways to insert gaps into timespans. Specifically the timespan given as an ordered timeline in Genesis 1-2:3

Deacon argued that this is not true if we are allowed to inject gaps into one of Daniel's timespans - then why not inject them into Genesis 1.

My point was simply that NO timespan will survive such a process.

Pastor Larry has then asked that I show NOT ONLY that the time span SURVIVES when we don't insert gaps - but going BEYOND that - show how the second timeline of Daniel 9 maps out without gaps inserted. He asked for an explalnation of specific details in the 490 year time span when we choose not to insert gaps into the time given.

And so ... after not giving that information and being asked repeatedly to do so...

I have made these last 3 posts.

===========================


Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, AND the People of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.


Certainly it is agreed that "After the 69th week" Christ was crucified - in fact He was crucified in the midst of the 70th week which also meant the sacrifices were at an end.

AND after that - (in fact long after that) - the city and the sanctuary were destroyed by the peopl of Rome - the Roman army (70 A. D) but that is another event AFTER the 69th week and After the cross and After even the 70th week.

But in the NT - it is the Jews THEMSELVES that bring about the destruction of the city according to Christ's own statements. The people of the Prince who is to come - Messiah the Prince - His people are the Jews and the NT declares that THEY were the "People" that would not let God spare the city.

In John 1 we are told that the "people of Messiah the Prince" are the Jews. "HE came unto His own and His own received Him not". Isaiah 9:6 foretells the same message of the Messiah as coming prince - Dan 9:25

In Mat 23:37-38 we are told that Christ came to save the city and the nation but the "people of the prince" would not have it.

When Christ weeps over the city He says - the city is destroyed because of a specific reason relating to the people of the prince..
Luke 19:41-48 "Because You did not know the time of your visitation".

Daniel uses the symbol for war "a flood" and declares that war and desolation are "Decreed". Indeed Moses did predict that just such a result would occur.

Dan 9:26 And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The "house left desolate" Matt 23:38 is a direct fulfillment of what "is decreed" by God
1Kings 9:6-7, Jer 22:5, Micah 3:11-12, Ezek 11:21-23.

========================================================
Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week,

Daniel is told that the period of "strengthening" the covenant last for the entire 7 years - for the entire 70th week (that follows the 69th week.) The historicist messianic view presented here promotes the full 7 year period as the time when the covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-32 (Hebrews 8:8-12) is being "Confirmed" and strengthened - in conformity with the text of Dan 9.

Christ says explicitly that the work of the Messiah is very much tied to the covenant

2Cor 3 tells us that it is the New Covenant alone that is "the ministry of righteousness" and "the covenant that gives life" .

Galations 1:6-9 tells us that there has been only one gospel. And the message of the New Covenant alone is life, forgiveness and restored fellowship with God as we see it in Heb 8:8-12).

At the start of Christ's ministry we have the covenant "strengthend" in the form of the Long promised Messiah of the New Covenant finally arriving.

In the middle of "the week" of seven years we have the New Covenant "strengthened" in the form of the atoning sacrifice being made.

Then in the last 3.5 years we have it "strengthened" in the form of the full message of the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah preached in its fullness to the Hebrew nation church - the "Holy Nation" "Royal Priesthood" - "People for God's own possession".

At each step the convenant is strengthened until it reaches its complete zenith of proclamation to the Hebrews.
=====================================================

Daniel 9:27 in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;

Here we do not see "the covenant ended" - rather the covenant is strengthened for the full 7 years. What we see is that the sacrifices of the OT Hebrew nation church - end in the middle of the week. THe Messiah's atoning sacrifice brings about the end of sacrifices.

Daniel's prophecy highlights one of the key gospel doctrines regarding the sacrificial system in relationship to the atoning death of the Messiah. Here we see that the sacrifices themselves would end - as they are merely shadows pointing TO the work of the Messiah (Col 2:17).

ONE alternative to this gospel central view - is that the event being highlighted (in this epic prophecy regarding the coming Messiah in 480 years) - is that the minor aspect of the Roman people and the Roman Ceasar as they stop the defunct worship practices of an apostate Jewish church about 40 years after the Messiah negates their usefullness.

(Truly a trivialization of the mammoth gospel themes that the first view highlights in Daniel 9.) This view bypasses the aspect of the Romans slaughtering the Jews - and focuses instead on their act in stopping sacrifices that are already made void by the Messiah some 40 years prior to this.

Another even less useful concept is that this key segment of Daniel's prophecy focused on an insignificant and pointless act of a future Antichrist at the end of time who stops Jewish animal sacrifices already made void some 2000 years prior to that by the Messiah, sacrifices Already stopped by Rome 2000 years prior and omitted in this prophecy. (One wonders if the antichrist is to be applauded for that or criticized).

The double problem in this view is that stopping what Christ already made void is pointless just as stopping what was Already Stopped is pointless. So you must also invent an entirely NEW imaginative story line to precede this event. One where God re-instituting the defunct "Shadows" sacrices that pointed FORWARD to Christ's first coming. This means trading the more gospel centric view of Christ as the antitype for all Hebrew temple sacrifices and replacing that with this anti-christ centric view of sacrifices-resumed then-stopped-again -- hard to swallow by every standard.

================================================

Dan 9:27 and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

The abominations begin with the rejection of the Hebrew nation of it's own king and Messiah and the curse pronounced on themselves "His blood be upon us and upon our children" Matt 27:24-25. And it completes with the work of the pagan Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and making a "complete destruction" in 70 A.D.

This is a view endorsed by the NT apostles and rejected by NT Jews.

I really wish Paul would lighten up a bit.

IN Christ,

Bob

[ November 29, 2002, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]