Fundy to Legalist

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Bro. Curtis, Jul 23, 2003.

  1. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/curtis.gif>

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    20,264
    Likes Received:
    4
    You already know most Christians call anyone who still believes only men should be pastors a legalist.

    But I still believe that. I also believe men really should have short hair. I'm not sure drum sets and electric guitars belong in church (but I don't think those that have them love the Lord any less than I do). I think if you are in a leadership role, you should probably wear a tie. Maybe even shave. I don't think that teen-age boys and girls should hold hands during a church service.

    At what point do like-minded folk run into danger of putting the letter of the law over the spirit ?
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    I run the danger of
    becoming legalistic when i MAKE you
    follow the "law" i choose to follow.

    And, you Brother Curtis, are in trouble,
    [​IMG] for in the "First Baptist Church of Ed"
    ties are OPTIONAL but hair on the head
    is MANDATORY (it doesn't have to be your own
    hair, anybodys hair will do).

    I also like to read the riot act to folk:

    Surely i have respect enough for my
    Brother/Sister in Christ that i will allow you your
    opinion. If further you believe your
    opinion, i will allow that also.
    But i will receive the same consideration
    for my opinion/belief.
    I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
    said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
    What the Bible said is true, what
    the Bible means is your opinion or
    is my opinion.
    Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant
    get confused what what the Bible said.
     
  3. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    carefully doing what the bible commands is never legalism.

    imo in this day and age our biggest problem isn't legalism, it's people being led to reinterpret/ignore parts of scripture to maintain their worldly, modern lifestyle or to be compatible with rationalism, humanism, feminism, and other isms.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Carefully doing what MAN demands, be it pastor or pope, is legalism.

    And doing what GOD demands in order to gain favor or standing or grace or whatever, is also legalism.

    I can do nothing more to make God love me any more or any less than what He already does.

    And whatever I opt to do, if it pleases God, then it must originate in Faith that HE gave me in the first place. So even my BEST works are not mine of which to boast. Hebrews 11:6
     
  5. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    dr. bob,

    what about rewards? do they vary with the obedience of the believer?

    1Corinthians 3:8
    Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

    Revelation 22:12
    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    ps - and of course you are right that legalism properly includes the idea of working to earn salvation, but i rarely hear anyone (or any baptists at least) advocating that, but i hear accusations of 'legalism' all the time in relation to family, chruch, and even biblical standards. the last is very disturbing.
     
  6. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/curtis.gif>

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    20,264
    Likes Received:
    4
    Exactly. Any effort to earn God's favor by keeping any law is futile. So how close can you follow Paul's intructions, and not fall into the trap ?
     
  7. latterrain77

    latterrain77
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Bro Curtis. A legalistic flavor can occur when someone takes a Biblical position that can be refuted by other Biblical positions. For example, take "long hair" on men (that you mentioned). MY interpretation of that verse is that long hair on men is to be avoided as a "CUSTOM" or for religious observance; a practice of certain religious orthodox Jewish men of that day which continues even until this day (1 Cor. 11: 14-16).

    However, long hair on men as a "fashion" statement is NOT a "custom" nor does it have any religious significance. Long hair on men did not begin and end with "hippies." Long hair on men has been a common and respected "look" among many cultures and generations; including many of the founding fathers of our Nation (Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Monroe, etc, all had "long hair"). Were these men violating Scripture? Well, if they believed that their hair had some spiritual significance as was the custom of some, then YES! However, if they wore their hair long because they thought it looked "cool," then it's NOT a sin.

    Could I be wrong? Of course! But I don't think so. Could you be wrong? Of course! But you don't think so. Yet, one of us is wrong. The question is, would you tell a long haired man entering into a church that he is violating Scripture by wearing his hair long? Or, would I attempt to silence you for making that statement to him because I think you are wrong? Legalism tends to create controversy where no TRUE Biblical controversy exists. latterrain77
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Man rewards success;
    God rewards faithfulness.

    I run the danger of
    becoming legalistic when i MAKE you
    follow the "law" i choose to follow.

    You run the danger of
    becoming legalistic when you MAKE me
    follow the "law" you choose to follow.

    I was in the airport in Vancouver, B.C.,
    (that is in Canada - for you geographically
    challenged) in early June. There were
    three families: 3 ladies with about 5 daughters;
    they all had on a see-thru headcovering
    about the size of a compact disc.
    Frankly, it looked legalistic to me.
    There is no use whatsoever to have on a
    small see-thru hat kind of thing except
    to keep the letter of biblical head covering
    law.

    Somebody asked "what do you mean by legalism?".
    I found a real neat answer in my
    nearest dictionary:
    LEGALISM -- strict, often too strict
    and literal, adherence to law or to a code

    Jesus called it straining at a knat and
    swollowing a camel
    In fact, Jesus was the greatest of all the
    moral teachers who taught AGAINST legalism.
    You aught to read what He said.

    Timothy 1769: "carefully doing what the bible commands is never legalism."
    Blindly doing what somebody says the bible
    commands is always legalism.

    Dr Bob Griffin: "And doing what GOD demands in order to gain favor or standing or grace or whatever, is also legalism."

    Amen, Brother Dr Bob Griffin -- Preach it! [​IMG]
    I.E. is not just what we do, but why we do it.
    God looks at the motives of the heart.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Timothy 1769: "what about rewards? do they vary with the obedience of the believer?"

    No, they vary with the reason the obediance was done.
    If one does good works to get rewards,
    the reward is small.
    If one does good works because one realizes the
    wonderful thing that Jesus has done in providing
    100% of their salvation, the reward is great.
    We are saved to do good works;
    we are NOT saved by our good works.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Timothy 1769: "imo in this day and age our biggest problem
    isn't legalism, it's people being led
    to reinterpret/ignore parts of scripture to maintain
    their worldly, modern lifestyle or to be compatible
    with rationalism, humanism, feminism, and other isms."

    Sorry to disagree with you.
    The biggest problem is legalism.
    In this day and age "fundamentalist" means "bigot".
    It sure isn't the liberal interperters of the Bible
    who gave the word this definition of "fundamentalist";
    twas the legalistic folks, people who say things
    like "God hates Faggots".
     
  11. KeeperOfMyHome

    KeeperOfMyHome
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2001
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, you've taken it upon yourself to judge the hearts and intentions of these ladies? What difference is there between what you did at that airport concerning those ladies and someone else who judges the heart and intentions of of female dressed in clothing that is not entirely modest?

    According to what you have just said, anybody who follows the Bible in how they live would be a legalist. Maybe I'm confused by what you said, or maybe I'm just a bit concerned that you say you will accept how others view the Bible if they will give you the same consideration, and yet you turn around and call somebody a legalist because they ARE following the Bible as they see fit. I don't know . . . maybe I've got a brain fog this a.m. and am just not following you.

    And latterrain77, would you think it a sin or not for a woman to dress as a harlot (many of today's fashions give just that impression) even though she had donned that clothing just cause it was "cool"?

    The Bible is quite clear that, by nature, long hair on a man is shame. It has little, if anything, to do with customs, etc.

    Julia
     
  12. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,655
    Likes Received:
    312
    First, let's keep the in-depth debates on clothing standards to the other threads. Instead let us keep our focus on the question asked in Brother C's root post.

    For me I'll repeat what I said on another thread
     
  13. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,659
    Likes Received:
    190
    Hmm… I hadn’t heard that one myself.

    Although I’m a person who believes that a pastor can be either a man or woman, it is foolish and arrogant to call someone a “legalist” for having your conviction. Good people with conservative methods of interpreting scripture come to different conclusions on the matter and it is not helpful to belittle those with opposing viewpoints.

    Good for you. Hold fast to your convictions unless your mind is changed in your study of the scripture. Let the scripture guide you.

    From the looks of your photo, I’d say you are very passionate about that belief! :D

    My understanding of the situation is that the male temple prostitutes wore their hair long and tried to resemble a woman and the female temple prostitutes wore their hair short. Paul wanted to make sure that the early Christian church would not be confused with the pagan worship of the day. Christians were already being misunderstood in regard to the practice of communion (some thought the “love feasts” were sexual in nature and others thought the symbolism of eating the “body” and “blood” of Christ was cannibalism).

    At the point where you set up your convictions as the de facto standard for other Christians and condemn anyone and everyone who does not conform to your personal standards.
     
  14. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,836
    Likes Received:
    115
    I can tell you exactly what legalism is. How do I know? I read it in the Bible.

    Matthew 23:23. Jesus told the Pharisees that they were in big trouble and that were hypocritical because they did not incorporate the more "important" matters of the law into their daily and spiritual lives.

    They tithed, yes, and He said that they were right for doing it, but they neglected other and more important things: justice, mercy, and faithfulness.

    A person who is a legalist is basing his or her faithfulness and justice and mercy towards others on the less important and not the more important matters. They are not necessarily wrong in their attitudes towards the minor points of the God's direction for our lives, but they are making them the most important things and ignoring the more what should be the real emphasis of our daily walk with God.

    Here are some modern examples of nitpicking the people of God to death and showing no mercy to them:

    </font>
    • When the music director's hymn or worship song selection causes you to focus on your intense dislike of the song more than your lifting up the name of Jesus while singing it, you are indeed a legalist.</font>
    • If the woman sitting behind you in church is wearing slacks and you can't help but scorn her for it and think yourself somehow spiritually superior to her instead of concentrating on how Jesus is vastly superior to any of us, then you are indeed a legalist.</font>
    • If the man sitting in front of you or standing in the pulpit needs a tie and a haircut and you can't help but feel morally ourtraged that he attends or preaches at the same church as you, then you are indeed a legalist.</font>
    • If you see a brother or sister in Christ whom you believe would be far more closer to Christ and blessed by God if they would just worship and dress and live just like YOU, then you are indeed a legalist.</font>
    There are many more examples than this, but listing examples is not my main point.

    My point is this. We are not the standard. No matter how much we follow God's standard, it still doesn't make us His standard. His standard for living is the Living Word and the Living Son.


    Peace-

    YSIC
    Scarlett O. [​IMG]
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  15. Thankful

    Thankful
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/BettyE.gif>

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    8,430
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a great topic. I have had trouble understanding all the labels that have been placed on people.

    Dr. Bob,

    Thank you for saying and I quote:

    "I can do nothing more to make God love me any more or any less than what He already does."

    Doesn't this make living a Christian life simple?

    We do God's commandments because we love Him, not to impress man, seek or receive rewards. We love Jesus. He loves us.

    We read our Bibles and try to follow the scriptures because we love our Lord God.
     
  16. Thankful

    Thankful
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/BettyE.gif>

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    8,430
    Likes Received:
    0
    Julia, Ed was not refering to what was in the hearts of the women in Canada. He was referring to the wearing of the "so called head covering" to follow the rule of wearing such.

    What these women were wearing did not cover their head or their hair. It was see through and covered their hair that was placed in what we call a bun. Perhaps this was the rule that they were following. Perhaps this was just a custom and had nothing to do with their religion.
    We don't even know if they were trying to follow the Bible, just what it appeared to be.

    Ed, nor I, judged these women for what they were doing or wearing. They did seem extremely sad and looked very tired, but it was perhaps a sad occasion for them and I am sure I looked tired,,,traveling on airlines these days is very tiring.

    This was an example of what appeared to be legalistic, trying to follow the rule of head covering. It has nothing to do with what is in one's heart or one's salvation. No one is saying that he/she does not accept their interpretation or opinion, but that it appears to be legalistic.

    oh, don't worry about brain fog [​IMG] Happens to me all the time. :D
     
  17. David Mark

    David Mark
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2003
    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    0
    If I do anything beyond believing on him that God hath sent and think that I will win favor from God for doing that extra thing, then to me, that is a form of legalism and not faith.

    All of God's favor was given to me when I believed on Jesus Christ as Savior. There is nothing to earn, except from men. Men, often require me to earn their love and favor. That's ok.

    God gives his love and favor freely and without differing weights or measures. That's why he says that differing weights and measures are an abomination to him.

    To me it is sin, resisting the Holy Spirit, disobedience, unfaithfulness, hating my neighbor or whatever thing I've been warned over and over about ;) , that affects seeing all that favor and sends me out into the wilderness. If I walk in the Spirit of Love, then I begin to see the favor that I have already received and the wilderness is just out there somewhere.

    If I walk in the flesh, I cannot see the path and I wake up frequently in the wilderness, wondering how I got there. It's very lonely and scary out in the wilderness. There all this howling and things creeping around in the trees. [​IMG]

    The joy of it all is that he will never leave me nor forsake me and knows when I am headed the wrong way. I guess I have never really surprised or shocked him. He always provides a way of escape and I learn from the experience.

    Dave.
     
  18. Thankful

    Thankful
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/BettyE.gif>

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    8,430
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good post, Scarlot O [​IMG] I'm afraid I have been guilty of thinking some of those very things, but I'm NOT a legalist [​IMG]
     
  19. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    We do God's commandments because we love Him, not to impress man, seek or receive rewards.

    i am sympatheic to this viewpoint. but our lord repeatedly speaks of the rewards for our deeds. perhaps it seems a bit crass to work for rewards, but our lord jesus repeatedly stresses the concept.

    Matthew 6:1
    Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 6:4
    That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

    6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

    Matthew 6:18
    That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

    Matthew 10:41
    He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

    Matthew 16:27
    For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Luke 6:23
    Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

    Luke 6:35
    But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

    1Corinthians 3:8
    Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

    1Corinthians 3:14
    If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

    1Timothy 5:18
    For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

    Revelation 11:18
    And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Revelation 22:12
    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
     
  20. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dr. Bob is technically right, legalism is, according to the dictionary, the doctrine of salvation by good works. However, the term is generally applied sarcastically to those who not only believe the fundamentals of the faith but take it a step further and believe that their APLLICATION of those Biblical principles are, in fact, equal to scripture itself. The OT was crystal clear that God said not to work on the Sabath. The Pharasee (legalist) said that to walk further than X # of feet per day was violating that law. X-1 = a GOOD believer and X+1 = a BAD believer worthy of death. In the NT we have I Tim 3 so that "thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth". A legalist will SPECIFY how those concepts are to be practiced and a liberal will GENERALIZE them into meaninglessness. Purely an example: Modesty, a legalist may say that a skirt above the knee, or a man's shirt with more than one button undone is immodest, a liberal says that modesty is in the eye of the beholder and therefore, there are basically no standards. The rest of us (notice how I cleverly count myself as neither) are left in the middle with nothing to hold onto except what the Bible says...oh...wait a minute...that's OK. Since I don't know EXACTLY how many inches above or below the knee or EXACTLY how many buttons to undo (and I DO have to decide) then I choose to decide in the direction that will bring God the glory and NOT in the direction that "pushes the envelope".

    Fundamentalistically yours'
    (I don't think it's a word either)
     

Share This Page

Loading...