Gal 2:20

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Chris Temple, May 21, 2002.

  1. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    (I posted this on the For Whom Did Christ Die? thread, but did not want it lost there.)

    For the General Atonist:

    Gal 2:20 says:

    "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

    Can every sinner in hell proclaim with Paul (for he must, if Christ died for him) that he has "been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me"?
     
  2. swaimj

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    No, because the lost person in hell nver placed their faith in the Son of God.
     
  3. Helen

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    Chris, you are mixing up what Christ did for us -- which was to become one sacrifice for all sin for all time -- with our individual responses to Him.

    The reason a person in hell cannot say he has been crucified with Christ is NOT because Christ did not die for Him, too, but because He refused that gift. He preferred to be his own boss and take his own accountability on himself, so that is exactly what he is doing.... in hell.

    No one is in hell because of their sins. Christ took care of sins. All of them.

    People who are in hell are there because they have refused Christ. For God did not send his Sopn into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. WHOEVER believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.. (John 3:17-18)

    Every sin will be forgiven men except the sin against the Holy Spirit. Jesus identified what that was when He said the Holy Spirit was the Spirit of Truth. Jesus is THE Truth. And God's wrath is being poured out on those who suppress the truth, or ignore it. It is the refusal of God's provision for us that sends us to hell. God's anger is so terribly fierce because Christ had died for them, too, but they wanted nothing to do with Him.

    Those who have been crucified with Christ are those who have responded to Christ with total giving up of themselves to Him. He then kills them -- they have been crucifed with Christ -- and gives them a new life and a new heart.
     
  4. By God's Grace

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    Helen:

    So you are saying that we are not saved by grace, but by works (ie: we accepted or rejected salvation)???
     
  5. Chris Temple

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    But that's avoiding the question. If all people were atoned for at Calvary, then ALL can say, indeed, must say, they were crucified with Christ. One cannot say that Christ died for all, but all were not crucified with him. If they were not crucified with Christ, then they weren't atoned for. So if all were atoned for, can they claim Gal 2:20, even as they suffer in hell? If the answer is no, then it is clear that general atonists do not believe in the substitutionary atonement as they claim to. And if they can only claim an atonement once they acquire it by faith, then they have worked to receive the atonement, and salvation is then by works and not by grace, so that man may boast :D
     
  6. pinoybaptist

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    People are in hell not because they refused to put their faith in the Son of God, or because they refused [ a gift. People are in hell because:
    </font>
    • all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;</font>
    • the wages of sin is death;</font>
    • the world is under condemnation;</font>
    • they were not God's chosen recipients of His gift of eternal life;</font>
    • Christ never</font>[*] knew them.
      </font>
    Please. I know how the mouths of some people on this board froth and in anger at the mere mention of the words Elect unto salvation, but the gift of life is not a gift being offered, it is a gift that has been
    given to whom God wants to give it, whether they inhabit the past, the present or the future.
     
  7. swaimj

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    By God's Grace and Chris Temple,
    You are both assuming that faith is a work. If faith is a work, then works are necessary for salvation because faith is necessary--essential for salvation. Without faith there is no salvation. Faith produces work, but faith itself is not a work. A classic work on this subject is J. Gresham Machen's "What Is Faith". He explains clearly that faith is not a work. Since Machen is one of your calvinist forbearers, no arminian he, I recommend that you read him.
     
  8. Helen

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    Think about it. If you bought some land, designed a house, built the house, furnished the house, landscaped the yard, and then handed me the title free and clear, is it a work on my part to accept or refuse? Hardly!

    What you did for me in this story was sheer grace on your part and no deserving on mine. But I was still free to refuse, right? Or, humbly and gratefully, accept.

    Giving up is not a work. It's an acknowledgement that we CAN'T save ourselves. Giving up to God is a choice that most people don't make, prefering, I guess, to keep laboring under the delusion they can improve or save or exalt themselves or whatever. THAT is works! Giving up and letting go to Christ is to quit works and utterly depend on Him.
     
  9. Helen

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    I know this sounds strange, but I think you are actually missing the Gospel message! Christ took that death for us. He died for us. One sacrifice for all time. Sins are atoned for. IT IS FINISHED. That financial term means the debt is paid. Not partially, not temporarily, but fully and for all time.
    And what I quoted from the Bible regarding John 3:17-18 states that it is believing on Christ that saves a person and not believing that condemns him -- not whether or not he sins. Yes, we ALL come short of the glory of God. Therefore it can ONLY be faith in Christ that saves, not a lack of sinning. This is not an excuse for sin and Paul states that exceptionally clearly in Romans, but the fact is that I remain a sinner and remain falling short of the glory of God as long as I am in the body, even though I am indwelt by the precious Holy Spirit who is slowly but surely transforming me into the image of Christ. Under the law my sins would have condemned me. But Christ came and died because of that. Now it is rejection of Christ that is the reason people go to hell. That is exceptionally clear in the New Testament.
     
  10. connieman

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    swaimj...true faith is not a work; it is a gift of God, graciously bestowed upon His elect people. We are not saved because we believe; we were reconciled to God (saved) by the death of God's Son, before we believed, "when we were yet without strength" (Rom 5:6) We were reconciled to God first,in order to believe, and be saved in the end.

    However, if "faith" is a thing of the will, produced from within the unregenerate nature, in order to be saved, THEN THIS "FAITH" HAS BECOME A WORK...A THING OF THE FLESH.

    As spoken of by many, what they call "faith" is false, a thing produced by man, not of God. Such "faith" is like counterfeit money...it looks good, but it is not genuine. When we take it to the bank, it will not be accepted.

    True faith comes by the grace of God, given freely to His sheep, in order that they might repent, and believe, and be saved.

    "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48 And the Gentiles had faith because they were appointed by God to eternal life.

    connieman

    [ May 21, 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]
     
  11. swaimj

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    No need to tell me, connieman, I agree with you. It's some of your calvinist compadres who are arguing. Let me know when you guys decide whether faith is a work or not & I'll know whether there is anything for me to argue about. :D
     
  12. connieman

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    swami, er, swaimj...What you and Billy Graham, and so many others, call "faith" is a work, because it is of man, not of God. But, of course such faith is not real, only imaginary faith.

    By grace, God's chosen people are given all they need: reconciliation to God, life from the dead, Holy Spirit, repentance, faith/belief/trust, righteousness of Christ, holiness, and endurance to the end.

    This is truth from the scriptures. Don't worry about all the "Calvinist." Like Christian, or Baptist, all sorts can use the name...no legal license is required!!

    What more do I need?...Whatever there may be, I have it from the same source. Christ is my all in all. :D

    In the Name of Him who is my sufficiency, by His grace alone,

    connieman

    [ May 22, 2002, 02:22 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]
     
  13. Chris Temple

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    Thanks - I have, and that is exactly my point. :D Faith is not a work in the Calvinist tradition; it is a gift as Scripture tells us (Gal 2:8,9; Phil 1:29). The very saving faith we have is a gift from God. Yet in the anti-Calvinist position, faith is - must - be a work, for it is a man-created action in response to God's grace. It is not I who assumes that faith is a work, but the necessity of the "Arminian" position; God has done all he can, now man must "close the deal". :eek:
     
  14. Frank

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    Frank,

    You have been told already that you are not welcome to post here because of your unbiblical beliefs regarding salvation and baptism. Please confine your posts to the appropriate forums.

    Moderator

    [ May 22, 2002, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  15. Eric B

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    OK, now we're admitting faith is not [supposed to be] a "work", but still assuming it is totally passive else it really is a "work". But still, Romans 4:3 says "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." not that God made him believe first because God already gave him righteousness. I do not see faith as a gift in Gal.2:8,9 or Phil.1:29, but Eph.2:8 is what is usually taken to teach faith is a gift. But the subject (gift) is salvation, and grace through faith", (as opposed to works), is the means or vehicle by which one receives this gift.
     
  16. Eric B

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    I had been planning for a while to give some of my testimony, since people have such mistaken assumptions of how non-Calvinists think they are saved. Now with people here questioning salvation of non-Calvinists altogether, it is a good time.
    In my late teens I was one who "ran" from God, associating Him with racist right wingers and control freaks who used Hell to scare people into submission and financial gain; who try to limit everybody's sexual freedom due to their own hangups (while some of them themselves enjoy it on the sneak). Some God (almost always pictured as some old white man) sitting in a literal "throne" judging everyone, and recent Creation story (with this manlike God patting together Adam like a clay figure) seemed stupid compared to the complex evolutionary hypothesis. All fundamentalists did was attack others' beliefs, it seemed, and I had heard the horror stories from my parents and others about the "Christian morality" and racism of the past.
    This prefectly fits with the scripture that "Noone seeks God".
    But then through a series of circumstances, God gradually began showing me the follies of the world. Being a quiet and highly intellectual loner, I didn't even have all the friends, women, parties, etc., and I believe God used this as well. He even used some false stuff to finally bring me in-- the Plain Truth, in Armstrong's final years, where he was excerpting both Mystery of the Ages and his writings on Revelation. The fulfilled and unfolding endtime prophecy made me start to see the validity of the Bible, and then it all fell into place-- man's sin, including my own; why the world is the way it is, that my loathing of Christian morality and doctrine before was my old nature's hostility towards God, and the discomfort I felt when God was mentioned was the conviction of the Spirit. Reading the Bible on my own, I saw that Armstrongism was full of false doctrines on other issues, and I avoided them. I sat on the fence for a while, but finally was convicted into making a decision, and prayed to God for Him to show Himself to me, and "I believe; help my unbelief".
    It's obvious that God was the one doing all the work. I did not say "Oh, I must now will myself to believe in order to be saved". I felt like that at times, but then came to learn to rest in God's finished work. I did not go down to any altar, at the prompting of some evangelist. I did not fill out a tract or card that said I was now saved if I did this. I just came to believe at God's drawing. At no point did I say "OK, so now I am believing, so now I am saved." I never felt "God did His part, now it's time for me to do mine", or that I "closed some deal" with God. Never did I "boast" of anything. I have probably not done 1% of anything, let alone the "50%" I keep seeing thrown around. Even today I struggle with many internal problems, and sometimes feel I shouldn't even be writing or arguing this stuff. Sometimes I wonder if I really believe. But then I remember that salvation is all of God, and none of my striving (including trying to "believe" when I feel doubt)(Romans 4:5). I've been told here that I only believe things based on whether I like it, but there are many "hard teachings" (the fact that any people, including those I love go to an eternal Hell, period) and rules the Bible tells me to obey, that I wish I didn't have to. But it is God who has given me the ability to believe and obey. Despite all of my shortcomings, there has been a great change in my life, not of my own doing.
    So I testify that my conversion was all of God, but the difference between me and some is that I do not assume that because it was God who led me like that, then everyone who was not so led "passed over" or "reprobated". How I was saved compared to someone else being lost is way above my scope of knowledge, and I do not see anywhere in the Bible that tells us to speculate on that. There are some verses that appear to support that, but when taken in context, most of them are talking about unregenerate Israel, who was raised and then hardened to open up the Gospel to the Gentiles. Some are jsut talking about the fate of the wicked in general, not necesarily individuals. Yet, I'm told if I don't believe this, then I'm "boasting" of "saving myself" by the "work" of "conjuring up faith from my old nature". But that does not match what I experienced.
    Then, one person ponders "Is this ignorance, or has it become willful rejection of the truth"? The next person takes this to its logical conclusion that people must still be "natural men" (i.e. not born again) if they reject this doctrine. Maybe some non-Calvinists here do think they just one day out of nowhere decided to choose Christ. I don't know. It is certainly possible for one to just "believe" and think he's saved by his own will of professing. There were many Jews "following" Jesus, and even in the Church afterward who were like this, but had not really submitted to the Gospel. The other non-Calvinists should give their testimonies so we can see what their basis of salvation really is. On the other side of the coin, it is also possible for one to try to save himself by professing the 5 points of Calvinism, and simply credit "God's grace", when really he is staking salvation on his own belief in a doctrinal system. Some here should also consider this.
    So it is time for all of these staw men cliche's about people saving themselves and boasting, and reprobation being the only antidote to that to stop.
     
  17. swaimj

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    Chris,
    Faith is a work in the calvinist tradition. That is my point. It explains the calvinists insistence that faith is a gift which man does not have naturally. Calvinists hold that faith is a work and, knowing that this makes work necessary for salvation, they weasel out of the logic of their system by concluding that man cannot believe on his own and must have a special gift of faith. My point in referencing Machen is that his view of faith--not a work, but the reception of salvation--is an exception among calvinists, not the rule.
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    No, Helen. I did not miss the gospel message. The gospel message was meant for God's people in this world, not as a "me first, now it's your turn" proposition that you are turning it into.
    Jesus knew why He was in this world. He had a mission to do for His Father, and He had souls to redeem with His blood, and He did redeem them.
    He had lost no one, save the son of perdition, Judas.
    All the soul-winning that had to be done is done, and His people have a hope in Him. That is the gospel, a good news, not a good proposal.
    Isaiah 53:10 says
    Is the pleasure of the LORD to watch his only begotten Son spat upon, beaten up, and slain by sinners ? He said He had no pleasure in the death of the wicked, should he now take pleasure in the death of the innocent ?
    The LORD's pleasure is to give His children the kingdom (Luke 12:32), and He has done it thru Christ.
    His children are saved, His children have a sure hope, His children, past, present, and future, have all their sins,past, present, and future, atoned for, and He has a definite number of people whose names have been written in the Lamb's book of Life.
    No. I have not missed the gospel message. I carry it glorying in Him who made salvation a fact for His own elect, and only for them, and I will not corrupt it by declaring it a mere possibility based on dead men's response, therefore giving the glory not to the mercy of God
    but to the "basic goodness" of man that you in so many words seem to imply.
    Men are going to hell because they are slaves to Satan, having sold out to him, owing their allegiance to him, thru the folly of Adam, and it pleased God to redeem some and not all from that slavery by paying for their purchase with the blood of His only begotten Son.
    He did it because it was His will, He did it out of mercy (Titus 3:5), and He did it for a definite number of individuals (Rev. 20:15).
    It is definitely good news, both in this side of eternity, and on the other side, that causes the redeemed sinner to break out in praise and thanksgiving to Him to whom alone belongs such praise and thanksgiving.
     
  19. connieman

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    To all my friends in this place, even the unbelievers and confused ones:

    "Every man at his best state is altogether vanity." Vanity=morally and spiritually bankrupt, of no spiritual meaning or value.

    If this is true, then the idea of the unregenerate man doing, or even thinking of, anything "right" or "good", such as repenting of sin, trusting in Christ, approaching God in faith, or "deciding for", or "accepting" Jesus Christ is manifestly ridiculous.

    Of course, if one does not acknowledge the authority of scripture, "The sky's the limit", "If it feels good, do it" and "Everything is possible, and acceptable"...and a sinner might want to become a "saint" simply by an act of his own "free-will." :rolleyes: :D

    Yes, and the cow might jump over the moon, if he really wants to do it.


    In the Name of Him Who is the "Changer of Hearts",

    connieman

    [ May 23, 2002, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]
     
  20. connieman

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    Pinoybaptist...bless you, brother for showing clearly in your last post to Helen, that there are two totally different gospels in view...one of God, the Gospel of the Free Grace of God, and the other, the "gospel" of the "free-will" of man.

    And, like the "east and west" of the poet, "
    ne'er the twain shall meet".

    I do not know that you and I might agree on every point of doctrine, but I believe we do agree upon this: That "Salvation is of the Lord."
    Electively, Totally, and of Him Alone, to the praise of His glory and grace.

    In the Name of Him Who is the "Changer of Hearts", according to His Own Will alone,

    connieman
     

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