Galarraga Perfect Game Debacle

Discussion in 'Sports' started by Andy T., Jun 7, 2010.

  1. Andy T.

    Andy T.
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    What - no thread on this? I'll start one, since it probably will be a paradigm-shifting game for years to come. I was watching it live and couldn't believe it. The joys of being a Tigers fan.

    I think Selig should have overturned it, since it was the very last out and would not have any affect on plays after it.

    I feel bad for the ump, and I am proud of how the Tigers handled it in the aftermath.

    I think instant replay is long overdue, and it probably benefits/protects the umpires most (gives them more confidence to make gutsy calls and would get rid of most if not all of these silly confrontations that we do not see in other sports). Sorry, I am not a traditionalist on this one.

    Long live Armando Galarraga and his 28-out perfect game! The only one in history!
     
  2. ccrobinson

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    It's because nobody cares about the Tigers. :tongue3:

    There's so much that surprises me, but Galarraga? This is the guy who throws a perfect game? Amazing.
     
  3. Bob Alkire

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    He isn't the first or will he be the last to have a bad call go against him. It is bad but it is life, bad calls or part of sport.
     
  4. jaigner

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    First off, as a baseball fan, I have had the privilege to visit Tiger Stadium in 1999 and Comerica Park in 2006. While watching baseball played in beautiful Tiger Stadium is one of the top highlights, I also enjoyed the new park, as well. I found the fans to be largely kind and respectful, even to a fan of the opposing teams.

    The problem is that the decision to use instant replay needs to be a careful and conservative one. In this case, while the incident is unfortunate, I don't think it is consistent to make an exception. Instead, I think it should serve as fodder for future discussion regarding the use of instant replay.

    How great is it to see the way everyone handled themselves, though? With all the nonsense we see from umpires these days (like Joe West, C.B. Bucknor, Angel Hernandez, Bob "Balkin' Bobby" Davidson, and Bill Hohn) it was great to see Jim Joyce step up and accept responsibility the way he did. That was great. The Tigers were great, too.
     
  5. TomVols

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    We've been waiting on you, Andy!

    You and I agree on a lot, well, save for where you're wrong about Davey, but you can't win 'em all. :smilewinkgrin: Here, you and I are a decent distance apart. I have to wonder:
    - I don't think it will shift any paradigms. It will go down as a huge SportsCenter moment and will be replayed for a long time. That said, I don't know if much else will happen.
    - I don't think I'm wild about Selig intervening. The magic of a perfect game is the postgame celebration as well as the historicity of the moment. Selig is too passive to intervene. And even if he wasn't, what kind of precedent does it set that an employee of the owners is reversing umpire calls on the field? Unprecedented. It's not the commish's job to be umpire-in-chief.
    - There is NO guarantee IR would've overturned this call. Remember, the umps got together and no one overruled Joyce. IR has shown the refs blown it and IR showed the IR guys have blown it too. We assume that IR would've fixed this. We assume wrong.
    - Instant replay has not been entirely accurate thus far in the limited scope the umps have. I don't know expanding it would help. And like I've said before, what do you do when a runner is on first, and this play happens on a hit and run and the runner is ruled out but overturned and called safe: where do you put the runner advancing? Second? Third? What about trapped balls with runners on second? Do you give 'em home plate?
    - No way IR in baseball will get rid of managers bumping umpires over calls. It really curtailed Cowher's antics with the Steelers. Or Gruden's. Or Cable's. Or Coughlin's. Or.....well, you get the idea.
    - Baseball has a way of correcting itself. The umps huddle and talk about what happened. We saw this a couple of times in the Nats/Reds series this weekend. The crew chief can overrule. Problem was, Joyce was the crew chief. There's a reason you have them.
    - There's more notoriety with this being blown than with this being corrected. If this had been corrected, we'd be talking about something else right now. But as it is, this will be talked about for some time. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it just is what it is.
    - And fans love a good "blown call" fiasco. They just do
    - I like that the ump came clean. But what did it help? did it erase the mistake? Will it keep him from being demerited? He has a good rep around baseball, so that remains to be seen.
    - I at least applaud Selig for not doing what the SEC usually does: "Hey, our refs cost team X a shot at winning the game, they blew a big call. Sorry. But we're not gonna do anything about it. Get over it." Means nothing. To an extent, neither does Joyce's mea culpa. But it makes me respect him to say he got it wrong and then to feel personally responsible (to see the guy cry like he did the next day was something).
    - What no one is talking about like they should be is how well this kid is handling the fiasco. There are some pitchers out there that would be bellyaching the rest of their lives over this.



    This would've been/was what, the third in barely two months of a season.

    I hate this happened. I would hate it if we were talking about Johnny Cueto's perfecto being taken from him. But I'd feel the same way as I do now about the reaction.
     
  6. Alcott

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    The average major league baseball game is 2 hours and 50 minutes, and there are 162 games for each team, and as many as 19 post season. If replay is going to be used it must be very limited in its scope. And unlike football, a coach/manager cannot simply lose a timeout if he demands a replay judgment and is wrong. Nor would baseball begin having a 'replay umpire' above the action to signal the crew chief; although umpires and their union may actually like that, as one game out of 5 each gets a comfortable seat out of the weather.

    But the question in this case is about changing or overturning a call entirely to acknowledge individual accomplishment; the chances were extremely small that the call could affect the outcome of the game. It just doesn't make sense to do this for that reason. On the other hand, if there is an unusual play with a lot of assists involved, and for instance, a runner overruns a base and then is tagged out, the umpires will notify the official scorer of this fact if he missed it, so he gets credit for his stolen base or extra base hit. The whole reason for the conflict is likely because baseball puts too much emphasis of individual accomplishment.
     
  7. TomVols

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    You tapped into something I intimated but left out directly - namely, if he'd been working on a shutout, we'd never have heard one word. The perfect game is the highest achievement in sports (much higher than the very overrated no hitter). So I can understand why so much is made of this. But it is about a personal record. Maybe Selig doesn't want to be known as the Ford Frick of the '10s, where the commish made a ruling (granted, beforehand) that affected individual accomplishments and was a debacle.
     
  8. Andy T.

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    If Selig had overturned this, there wouldn't be one person in baseball or fan outside baseball that would have complained about it. Nothing like Ford Frick. Nothing at all.
     
  9. Andy T.

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    I'm sure the brilliant minds in baseball can come up with certain limits/rules to mitigate against such problems. For instance, no review of continuation plays. Only review safe/out calls that do not affect continuation, etc. More IR is coming to baseball, so get used to the idea.
     
  10. Andy T.

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    And as it stands now, this game will have an asterisk next to it. So the fact that Selig did his usual nothingness, he's more like Ford Frick than if he had acted bravely and overturned it.
     
  11. ccrobinson

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    Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Completely and totally wrong.

    Go listen to the Baseball Today podcast from June 3rd and listen to Eric Karabell and Seth Everett.

    It would been a terrible mistake if Selig had overturned this.

    On the same night that this mistake happened, the Seattle Mariners won a game because Josh Wilson wasn't called out at 2nd in the 11th. If the Galarraga game mistake gets overturned, do you overturn that one? If not, why not? If so, where does this stop? Should we go back and overturn the bad call in game 2 of the ALDS? How about the HBP that was missed in the Detroit-Minnesota playoff game last year? What about the Denkinger call? That was more egregious because it happened in the World Series. What about the 1996 Jeffrey Maier playoff game?

    How is this situation so much more special than those?

    There's nothing brave about Selig kow-towing to public sentiment to overturn a bad call.
     
  12. TomVols

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    Andy, CCRob has already spoken eloquently against what you posted, so I won't pile on.
    Save for highlight fodder, this meant nothing. ESPN may do a show about it "Top FIve reasons why....." kinda thing. But this will go away. And quicker than we imagine.
    Ford Frick should've done nothing. By his doing something, he's now a by-word. So would Selig if he'd done the unthinkable (well, he's already a by word, but that's another story). I'm shocked he didn't bow to public opinion since he seems to know little of principle and conviction from his inner True North. Maybe he found one.
    As I said, see CCRob. I promise you, if Lebron had signed his deal that day, this story would've been bumped. That's how big a deal this is...or isn't. I hate it. I do. But it was a blown call at a terrible time. It was a Denkinger, nothing more or less.
     
  13. Andy T.

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    Because it was the final out of the game and would have no affect on any other plays after it. All the other examples you provide are moot since we can't undo what happened afterward without affecting the result of the game. In this case, it would be simple to declare the 27th guy out and nullify the 28th guy's at-bat, with no harm done. And no bogey-man precedent-setting, either. That is such a strawman, because all the other examples do not fit with this situation. This one is a first and it would be easy to overturn it. Hiding behind "precedent" is the coward's way.

    Save for a few wild-eyed purists (apparently you and Tom are among them), the vast, vast majority of people would be in favor of overturning it.

    In fact, I predict (hope) that MLB comes out with a more expansive IR policy by year end, and they retroactively apply it to this game and grant him the perfect game.
     
  14. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I, for another, would be very opposed to the overturning of a call after the game is over, no matter how bad the call is.

    Once the final whistle blows the game is over. Sad, but true.

    (Yes, I know there is no final whistle in baseball)
     
  15. Alcott

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    Going from memory (w/o checking), I recall there is a perfect game with an * in the record book, but I don't remember the pitcher. It is there because the starting pitcher put the first batter on first base (don't remember how), then had to leave the game for some reason. The pitcher who came in got the 2nd batter on a double play, which also got the runner; therefore he did not allow a base runner and achieved 27 straight outs. Yet the game could not be a perfect game because a runner reached 1st.

    Another 'flip side' example corresponding to the recent Galarrago case would be the Drysdale/Hershiser scoreless inning records. Drysdale achieved that record of 58 2/3 in 1968 because the plate umpire ruled that a hit batter, with the bases loaded, made no attempt to avoid the pitch, and there by a very seldom invoked rule, the pitch was simply a ball. 20 years later Hershiser was also helped in surpassing Drysdale's mark by a controversial interference call against a batter.

    So records and stats are not as pure as we may like them to be, either in favor of, or in opposition to, individual players. And who knows if instead of rookie Galarraga, it had been Sabathia, Greinke, or some other with established an A-list profile? Would he have the benefit of the questionable call, like it appears Drysdale and Hershiser may have had? It's surely a pressure situation for the umpire involved... again because of such an emphasis-- or overemphasis-- baseball puts on personal stats.
     
  16. ccrobinson

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    The Seattle game is the 2nd one. The bad call at second would have been the 3rd out, but it wasn't and the game went on because of the call. It cost the Twins the game.

    Don't bother debating me if all you can do is call me names.


    Just because the "vast, vast majority" is on your side doesn't mean you're right. Again, if you can't debate without calling names, don't bother.


    Won't happen.
     
  17. TomVols

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    Andy, you're reaching, my friend. You know I'm no strict purist (I'm an NL guy in favor of the DH for crying out loud). I'm just for the integrity of the game. And I'm against having the Commish affect play on the field especially when it would be egregiously inconsistent.

    Should we go back and review close plays where the Tigers were beneficiaries?

    And since when is this argument pregnant with wisdom:
    So as long as it's the final out, and no one gets hurt, nothing else gets affected....let it go. What if we had a baserunner on 2nd and a no-hitter was at stake in a 1 run game. Should Selig have overturned that one?

    If Galaraga pitched for the Twins, you'd agree with me, CCRob, et.al. :laugh:

    By the way, the polling I've seen shows almost a 70% number favoring letting what happened stand. Biggest reason? Let it be settled on the field. Remember, we assume IR would've overturned this. To assume this is just sheer sophistry.

    ESPN is making a huge deal out of it...naturally. I can't wait to hear Joe Morgan's take ;)
     
    #17 TomVols, Jun 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2010
  18. Andy T.

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    Actually, I would be in favor of overturning it no matter who it was.

    And IR would have definitely overturned it - are you nuts? It is plain as day. As soon as Joyce saw it, he admitted it was the wrong call. It is plain as day. In comparison, the Denkinger call in the '85 WS - I still have not seen a definitive IR that shows the pitcher's foot was on the bag; every replay I've seen is not quite clear. Of course, that was 1985 technology. We have better stuff now, which is why more expansive IR is inevitable.
     
  19. Andy T.

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    Apples and Oranges. I should have added: "and does not affect the outcome of the game." Your scenario would affect the outcome of the game. Overturning Galarraga's call would have no affect on the outcome of the game; Tigers win 3-0 either way. The only effect would be to nullify the 28th batter's at-bat, and that is of little consequence.
     
  20. ccrobinson

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    Simply put, I don't believe that for a second. I've asked you twice about the Seattle/Minnesota game and you have yet to say anything. I'm sure you're all in favor of Selig overturning that one and giving the win to Minnesota.
     

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