Gambling

And what are the odds of their being done right? and do you gamble on t hem?

 

I have not seen that proved. If a person works for another person who pays the first $100 for the job, is it worth exactly $100, absolutely no more or no less? [And we are arguing in absolutes because you stated no exceptions to you contention that "in investing, no one has to lose."]

Yes; I specifically recall playing once in which it did.

'Probably.' Again, though, you made no exceptions.

Not "are somehow," but could be. For example, a charity bingo game or raffle is primarily to raise money (or other goods) for those in need. If anyone participate and loses, that is a method of 'fulfilling' that principle in a microcosm.

 

If an employer pays someone $100, they do not lose that money. They use that labor to make or sell a product, etc. IOW, they gain from the labor.

I still stand by my statement that in investing, no one has to lose. Sometimes they might lose, but that is not inherent to a free-market economy, like it is in gambling.

Probably a private game between friends, right? That's hardly comparable to casino and other big-time gambling.

Why not just give the money to the charity without the gambling involved? I say the person who just gives to the charity is doing it biblically, while the person who needs or wants to do it in the context of a game is doing it less than biblically. Just give with no strings attached or with the hope of winning something back.

 

Also, with your private game amongst friends where it came out even - is that the only time you played? You can't count just one night - you need to look at all the nights that you have played.

It seems you are grasping at straws to rationalize gambling as equal to responsible investing.

 

No, I played more games, and I can't remember another one that 'came out exactly even.' But if you can't count just one game/one night, you can't count just one investment. If you play the market to in hopes of making money, and you lose a bundle, it has been lost in hopes of gaining, just as in what you differentiate as "gambling." Ain't it?

As for "why not just give the money to the charity," having bingo games, bazaars, door prizes at a dinner, et al, are done because it's been determined that more money goes to the charity than if it's simply begged for.

Maybe in churches, we're too used to that: "Give... tithe... give more than a tithe... and I know you'll be blessed." Sure. Trying to make it sound like a wise investment, when people give their last $200 to a church, convince they'll be "blessed" and can then pay their $600 rent owed, then get kicked out of their homes. How is that not gambling?

 

Keep the rationalizations coming! I don't doubt that investing can be done in a spirit of greed like gambling, just like many other things involving money are done out of greed. But I've shown two things that differentiate sound investing from gambling:

1) Someone losing is not inherent to sound investing in a free-market economy. So if you gain in your investing, you have not taken money from someone else, like you do in gambling. That is, there is not an equal proportion of winners and losers in a free-market economy.

2) Sound investing is based on sound research and business know-how, not mere chance.

Pretty sad, isn't it?

Poor teaching and/or poor reasons for giving to the church does not somehow make gambling o.k. It seems you want to paint everything in life as a "gamble" so as to rationalize away your participation in games of chance gambling. Try this: Why don't you make a positive argument that gambling is a wise endeavor without trying to compare it every other activity under the sun. Because so far, your attempts to compare gambling to investing, church giving and simply breathing in a free market economy have come up empty.

 

Alcott, I'm sorry, but you have never studied economics, and you do not know what you are talking about. Click below: http://www.phoenix.edu/online_and_campus_programs/individual_course_descriptions.aspx?courseurl=Graduate/MBA_e-Business/ECO533.htm

 

In the late 1920s, my church disfellowshipped a man for gambling. He had invested in the stock market.

 

Investing in the Stock market is not gambling

Lets just say that you had $1000.00 and you bought Wal-Mart shares selling for (say) $50/share

That would give you what?? 20 shares

Lets just say that the shares go up by ten dollars to $60/share

The shares you have (20 of um) would then be worth how much?? $1200.00 for a gain of $200.00

Of course, just the opposite can happen---the stock could "de-value" and only be worth $40/share for a loss of $200.00

BUT

Once you purchase the shares---the shares will always be owned by who??? YOU!!!! Unless you do somethin' goofy like sell them or somethin':wavey:

When the shares go up in value----you want to hang on to them----watch and see what happens--till you reach a point where you say---"I do believe I want to sell and get my profit!!!"

When the shares go down in value---you want to hang on to them---and keep watching---maybe the market will rebound----or you may decide---"Well--the stock is down at the minute---but I anticipate an upswing soon---so I'm gonna buy 50 more shares at the current low price in anticipation that it will swing up!!!

BUT the stock you bought---will always be yours---you are "part owner" in the company---you can go to stock holder meetings and eat from the company catered buffet table--- and talk to the bossman(CO CEO)----just whatever you want to do---collect their pens and caps and letterheads and hope they'll give away good door prizes like a pocket knife or a bluebird house or somethin'!!!!

Casino gambling doesn't work out quiet the way that stock investing does!!!

Once your money is on the table---and your "#" doesn't show up or you tell the Twenty-One card dealer---"Hit Me!!!" when you should have told him---"I'll stay!!!!"---that money is no longer yours--but becomes the proud property of the Casino thats robbin' you blind but you just ain't figured it out yet---and probably won't figure it out until they tell you---"Out the door you go!!!!" Suddenly---THEIR buffet doesn't digest so easily!!!!!!!

 

You just did a good job of keeping 'rantionalizations' coming there.

That'r ridiculous. If you gain money from investig, somebody had that money before.

There is not likely to be; but neither is there in a casino with hundreds of tables and slots. A few may win big, while a big majority lose a little (and a few lose a lot). That's not "equal proportion of winners and losers."

Then, is it gambling to pick a stock at random and buy it? to base the buy decison on one factor? 2 factors? ... is it gambling to buy a stock that has been rated as sell or hold?

How do you conclude that? My degree is in statistics and I know what I am up against in games of chance. Whether I play them even rarely depends on how stupid the one who challenges me, or the expectation is calculated and I won't exceed a certain risk.

I will not try it because gambling [including investing, if you differentiate that] is not a wise endeavor, unless you know what you are up against and the expectation of success is positive and the risks marginal.

If you give something up in hopes, but not assurance, of a better return, that's gambling.

 

Some people were not meant to invest. It does take a minimal of brains. Some people get the rattle of their brains mixed up with the sound of rolling dice.

 

Wrong, bud.

 

Well I was talking in terms of marketshare (and was trying to simplify.) Notice that KMart and Target and Walmart all share a particular marketshare in that sector of the retail market. KMart lost...big...but Target and WalMart keep triving. Anyhoo, I think we just need to respectfully agree to disagree on this.

I'm a huge proponent of free-market capitalism. Really I am. Here's the thing: there are losers and that isn't a bad thing.

Your point that there can't be a loser isn't one I share. There are loser all the time in all areas of life, that's life. Sometimes we need to lose to become stronger. I think losing at things is good.

For instance in my times going out and having a great time with my friends, I have lost money but only $25. Yet I always remember two things: a) it's just money, b) the investment of great times with friends is far better than any money I win or lose.

Agreed, but you asked for an example.

I guess you're looking for a loser in this arguement...:tonofbricks:

I'm still looking for a biblical argument against gambling, I just haven't seen it around here.

 

What I meant was that in free market investing, there is economic growth which means that everyone can win. And everyone does win when there is economic growth - even the poorest of the poor here in the U.S. are rich compared to third world countries. In gambling, you are just giving/taking money from one person to another.

It could be. I don't deny that some people practice "gambling" with their investments. I don't condone such investing. I condone responsible, diversified investing.

I submit that this is not loving your neighbor as yourself, which the Lord Jesus Himself commanded. Taking advantage of someone else is not love. This is the downfall of gambling. If you are successful at it, you are preying on the losers' weakness and stupidity. If you are unsuccessful at it, then you are wasting God-given resources.

 

Way back in this thread I asked what you liked about gambling. You gave a similar answer here - i.e., that you had a good time with your friends. That doesn't answer the question. Why do you need the gambling to have a good time with friends? There are a host of other activities to enjoy where you can also have a good time with friends. Why gambling? What makes it enjoyable in and of itself? And that desire that makes gambling enjoyable - is it a holy desire?

 

To have a good time with friends, you don't need dinner, you don't need a sporting event, a hike, a rap session, a concert ..... but something will probably be chosen besides staring at each other.

Holy means "set apart," so I suppose it is.

 

What, you think I just go and gamble with my friends and go home to live in my hole tucked away from the world? You think this is the only activity I partake in with these friends?

Because there are more. We do normal stuff, go to baseball games, football, hockey, basketball. We go and hang out at a coffee shop, go bum around a park and toss te frisbee around, have lunch or dinner together. We do life together and have a blast. We invite others to go and hang out and do life with us. We have even...wait for it..asked unchurched people to go and hang out and do life with us without a motive behind that request (other than getting to know them.)

We simply have fun, a minor (very minor on the scale of things) part is when we hit up a casino, around a card table, or other joint to kick it back. Just happens we can get some great food, a terrific show, and some unbelievable memories. Life together is about creating opportunities to fellowship and grow.

Listen if it'll help you I'll ask my guys to cancel our semi-annual Poker and Peanuts night...

Also, way back I asked for a biblical argument against it that doesn't go beyond personal preference.

I think incarnating the joy of the Gospel with friends and expressing, honestly, that joy are key for us at all points. Keep in mind you are using a highly subjectivistic term to try to define for me how I express my devotion to God. What if I can honestly say I don't buy your definition of holiness here?

Just tossing that out there. And no, I don't have any tattoos or piercings...but I am in a gang...

 

No, I never thought or insinuated that all you did was gamble. I remember you said that you only did it a few times a year. No need to be defensive.

I'm not losing any sleep over your gambling, so I'm a little confused as to your implication that I care so much about this.

Sure, there are no direct biblical commands against it. But this thread has discussed several biblical principles that come into play with gambling - principles like greed, theft, stewardship, work ethic, loving your neighbor.

How do you know what my definition of holiness is (as if my definition accounts for anything)? You're implying that I'm defining holiness in some prudish, extrabiblical fashion. Maybe I was thinking of holiness in the sense that greed is unholy, or that failure to love your neighbor and consider his welfare is unholy. Are you telling me that those are extrabiblical imports that you don't buy?

Is this an attempt to be funny or to belittle me, or both?

 

It is ridiculous to assert that the stock market is gambling. You are an owner of a company. If the company does well, you make a profit as owner. If it has a tough quarter, you may lose part of your investment as the market capitalization drops. That is capitalism.

 

It's a gamble to buy a penny stock you know nothing about.