1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

GAP Theory

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by Salty, Oct 14, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Johnf

    Johnf Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Baptist

    I don't think so. They are in agreement, but diametrically opposed in that agreement.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do agree thatwhen one does NOT see Genesis in a literal way does create problems, but alsao he seen some YE elevate tis to essential octrine sttus!
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is very true, as we agree on so many things, but tend to major on side issues!
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It might stand for in the original of all beginnings..
     
  5. Johnf

    Johnf Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My question is that without the sun, stars, and moon with a void earth, what exactly standard at which time is measured. Today we have days, lunar cycle, and the earth revolving around the earth. If there is no sun or moon where do we get a reference for how long the first day was. I'm not talking about a gap, but with no reference point there is no way to accurately say that the first four days were hours. So really until the 4th day there is no way to definitively say what a "Day" is.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It would be right when God created the Universe itself, when all things were created by Jesus...
     
    #86 Yeshua1, Dec 7, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
  7. Johnf

    Johnf Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your reply doesn't address the point.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Time itself was created when God creaated material universe...
     
  9. Johnf

    Johnf Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree with that, but what was the observable standard?
     
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Hebrew translated "In the beginning" is a declaration of the original creative act of God, by which the universe was called into being. As the universe consists of space, time, and matter/energy yet is a UNIverse (Three in One!) it is true that time must have been created along with the rest of the space/time continuum.

    However the verse is not merely a heading but a declaration of that first creative act. Verse two, which is a circumstantial clause, sets the stage, so to speak, for the following account of the course of the creation and commences with "waw" (and), which connects the different acts of creation with the fact of original creation expressed in verse 1, as the primary foundation upon which all the rest is built. בְּרשִׁיח (in the beginning) is an absolute. It stands alone.

    The following circumstantial clause of verse two cannot be subordinate by rendering it, “in the beginning when God created ..., the earth was,” etc., which is opposed to the grammar.

    The waw, prefixing the noun translated "earth" (Hebrew eretz = w-eretz) makes the word a disjunctive indicating no logical or chronological connection between verse one and verse two. Therefore it is mere, unsupported, speculation to try to insert time between verse one and verse two, as the gap theory tries to do.

    I am sorry this answer to going so long, but Hebrew grammar is quite complex but is of vital importance in understanding the Creation narrative.

    I don't think so. :)

    I agree. The longer periods of time were delineated by the sun, moon, and stars, not created until verse 14, but the dividing of the light/dark created what the bible is calling a "day" so we have some indication that time, at least at the day/night level was already being recognized. The hermeneutical principle of "shareability" would indicate that two guys looking over Moses' shoulder as he penned the words would have the same understanding of the meaning of "day" as Moses, and other Jews living in the 15th century BC. A "day" to them was one light - dark cycle comprised of roughly 24 hours, and there is no reason to understand the word to mean anything else.

    And even though the sun did not yet exist, as the earth turned on its axis, it would still exhibit a sidereal day. A sidereal day is simply the time it takes a point on the earth to rotate on its axis from one point in space, around a 360 degree circle, and back to that single point in space, marking out the roughly 24 hours of the day.

    Well, the sidereal day, as explained about, would account for the length of the day prior to the creation of the sun. But the light was already created so, as God says he divided the light from the darkness it is legitimate to understand that the created light was gathered into a single spot in the cosmos and the day was reckoned using that point source.

    I always get this mental picture of God, having created the light, had to keep grabing it and puting it back where it belonged because, as we know, light is fast and will stream away quickly if left unattended. So my mental image is of God grabing the light and puting it in a giant mason jar, screwing on the lid, and saying, "There! That will keep you where you belong." So God created the sun to be the light bearer of His created light. (But the light bearer was probably not a giant mason jar.) :D:D:D

    And the use of the word "day" prior to the 4th day would also indicate to me that such a time existed, and the law of shareability would indicate the Jews of Moses' day understood the word to mean the same as it means to us today.

    Sorry for the length of this answer. Just write it off to an old seminary professor with too much time on his hands during his retirement. :D:D:D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Johnf

    Johnf Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I like the thoroughness of the answer. Anything less would have been incomplete and left me asking more.

    This is the best explanation I've been offered. I'll need to ponder. Thank you.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Johnf

    Johnf Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Where and when did you teach if I may ask?
     
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    From 1985 until 2010 at San Diego Baptist Seminary.

    And in the 1990s I also taught at Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College in San Dimas, California.
     
  14. Johnf

    Johnf Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's almost as bad as being a Yankee. You still in California? That's got to be a pretty open mission field. I grew up in the World Wide Church of God founded by H.W. Armstrong that was based in Pasadena and spent my first 10 years in Salinas. Are you familiar with the church (cult) and the area?
     
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was born in north suburban LA (Altadena), just about 10 minutes from the PCBBC campus and almost next door to WCG's headquarters/college in Pasadena.

    In 2012 I retired (forcibly, by my doctor who told me to either retire or buy a casket) and my wife and I moved to the far, far, south of Texas, in the Rio Grande Valley just a stone's throw west of the Gulf of Mexico and a shorter stones throw from the Mexican border.

    I am familiar with Armstrongism, but understand that it is now claiming to be mainstream evangelical. Other than that I haven't really kept up. I did know that Garner Ted had started a splinter church in Tyler Texas but don't think it ever went anywhere. I heard that he had died about 10 years ago.
     
  16. Johnf

    Johnf Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are actually several splinters. Much of my dad's family still belong to them and even worse. There's one call the Assemblies of Yahweh which is just off the wall nuts. They are led by a guy named Elder Myer.

    This guy is my first cousin.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The WWCG has loosened up their requirements , such as Sabbath observing, no Holidays, but not sure if they are teaching real Gospel yet though!
     
  18. Johnf

    Johnf Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The ones that I know that are still in it are still observing the Sabbath day, feasts and living by the health/food laws. The are teaching salvation, but strictly salvation by works.

    It is still a works based religion.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That sounds like te slinter group, as main church loosened up!
     
  20. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    798
    I have no idea what you believe, I only know the what you say in your posts. You said the earth could be 4.5 billion years old. I realize you think that's unlikely, but you left it open as a possibility. I called you on it. Here's what you said,

    You are wrong. The Bible is very clear the earth is 6000 years old or so. The genealogies of Gen. 5 and 11 are closed.

    It doesn't need to. It gives us chronological genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 which are closed, but even if they contain gaps could not possibly take us back 4.5 billion years.

    You've demonstrated you don't believe the father's age is mentioned at the birth of his son in the genealogies of Gen. 5 and 11. And yes, they are genealogies. They are very clear and were meant to give us a timeline. BTW, not all genealogies are chronological. But these are.

    No, you're lying about my challenge to you. You are making the subtle claim that the Bible is silent on the age of the earth. You are wrong. It is not silent. The text rules out 4.5 billing years. It's impossible textually.

    You have no idea how little I care about your fatigue. Deal with what I say stop beating your chest. You're not intimidating anyone.
     
    #100 Calminian, Dec 18, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...