Gay marriage - Is it illegal to deny marrying them in other countries?

The argument that Christians can accept gay unions as a civil legal event (which is what I think you are saying here), is still not acceptable. I think using the word "union" instead of marriage is a distinction without a difference.

Marriage is more than just a civil event from a Biblical view; it is a picture of Jesus and the church, His bride. Therefore, there is a moral and biblical element in any legal union. I cannot endorse or go along with such a union just because not everyone is a Christian, just as I cannot endorse abortion. Abortion is worse since it is murder, but such a union is still immoral and wrong.

As I said in my previous post, such unions were never recognized or accepted legally until the very late 20th century. It is not like this is something humanity has gone along with for centuries, not anywhere. I think this in and of itself reveals that a drastic change is taking place in the moral structures of societies and it is a change downwards. It is almost going beyond Romans 1, because the state is legitimizing it as a legal union or marriage.

 

She posted this before the thread moved here from an all Christians forum.

 

The practices of ALL the societies of the world are NOT listed in the Bible, just as not all historical events are listed, or scientific data, or moral values. The Bible is specific in what it details.

Profane history does have some mention of homosexual unions long before America was formed.

Granted it has become more pronounced in our time, gay pride parades and other such public demonstrations.

We do not live in a Christian commune, we live in a democratic country, and all citizens have rights. We may desire that all men would be like us, but it just isn't so, and prolly never will be.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Yes, Jim, homosexual unions but not marriage!!! That was my point. Not marriage -- ever, ever, ever, ever -- until the late 20th century.

Does that mean I am to endorse, support, or accept laws that condone acts condemned by God?

 

I'm sure there are laws in order now that violate the laws of God, but they are part of a democracy. Not everything we enjoy in these countries is God blessed I fear.

Cheers,

Jim

 

A great many churches in the U.S. are incorporated at the state level. That means they are identified as "a corporation of the state of....." That makes them subject to the corporate laws of each state.

If a state has laws that forbids discrimination on the basis of se*ual orientation, and churches do not have exemptions, then they can be subject to civil lawsuits and criminal penalties as the state legislation enacts.

Given the ever increasing liberalism and the "thought police" in this country, I believe it is a only a matter of time before opposition to homose*uality, even from the pulpit, will be considered "hate speech" and subject to criminal penalties.

peace to youraying:

 

Please let me preface my remarks by saying I have a great amount of respect for you and the way you post on this board.

This is not about us living together in harmony. True Christians have the most tolerant attitude on the planet. True Christians understand that sinners will act like sinners, and we were once sinners enslaved to sin (whatever that sin in our lives was). True Christians should also understand that the world will hate us for being Christians because we represent the goodness and mercy of God and the greatness of Christ. We also represent the expectations of God upon His creation.

Legal, civil recognition of homose*ual unions is a display of the power of darkness in the world. The powers of darkness are not satisfied with a "live and let live" mentality.

Legal, civil recognition is a first step toward forced acceptance. Once it becomes the law of the land, you can be assured the next steps will be taken. Slowly, but surely, an ever tightening circle will strangle all attempts at compromise.

Eventually, all true Christians will be forced to make a choice between compromising their beliefs in fear of persecution or standing firm upon the Word of God despite sure persecution.

As far as living in a democracy.... the only vote that counts is God's... and He says "no" to homose*ual unions and so should we. If you are going to earthly authorities on these issues, you are going to the wrong authority.

As sure as Jesus died on a cross according to the scriptures, everyone who desires to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

I do hope I have not offended you, as that was not my intention. Again, I have often been impressed with your posts and consider you to have exampled a Christlike spirit on this board.

peace to youraying:

 

Yes, there are -- such as abortion -- but I do not endorse them nor willingly accept them.

 

Thank you for your kindesses. Never fear about offending me. As the writer of old said, "To thine own self be true." Yjis is not to negate that we ultimately answer to God.

Going back to other posts, you will see that, as an evangelical group of pastors, we organized and petitioned the government to reword the law so that ministers could marry the couples of our choosing, and NOT be forced to "marry" or "JOIN" homosexual couples.

So, you see, they are often many ways to hold to the laws of God whilst allowing democracy to have her way.

May I illustrate a situation? There are two ladies in my village; a medical doctor and a beekeeper. They live together. They are gay, but do not flaunt it down the streets. They are very careful. The doctor was born to Baptist parents on the mission field. Once disclosing her gayness, her mother treated her with nothing but disdain and anger. It alienated her from God's word.

When she came here to practive medicine, I befriended her and them. The know exactly what I believe.........so why shout it over and over again?.....I read scripture with them, pray and have "fellowship" When they face some difficulty, they call me.

Now, If I had taken the hardline, perhaps they would distance themselves as the doctor did her parents and then where would I be with my witness?

When confornted by a montain, there are three ways to conquor it: Dig through, Climb over or go around. I am not stuck with only one way to reach the other side. God can lead us in any one of those ways to reach the goal.

If we truly believe that it is God who gives the increase, we will develop a great amount of patience in dealing with people.

Cheers,

Jim

My apologies for the lengthy post.

 

But Jim, you are talking about personal relationships here. This is completely different from the topic of accepting a law that allows civil same sex unions!

I am totally for befriending unbelievers and hoping that one can witness through the relationship. But we do not have to accept legal unions of gay people in order to do this. I can be against such laws and at the same time be kind to and befriend gay people.

I used to pick handfasting dates for lesbian witches and I had quite a few gay clients and friends when I was an astrologer and New Ager, so there is no issue for me in talking to gay people.

 

I applaud your efforts to organize and petition your government. You obviously did the right thing. Did you ever wonder why you had to ask the government to reword the law? Surely you don't think those who supported the law just overlooked the impact on evangelical churches?

The forces of darkness will not be satisfied with the current law. They will attempt to modify it to include evangelical churches. At some point, your organization will no longer have the political influence to stop that change.

As I stated above, and forgive me for complimenting you to your face, you continually demonstrate a Christlike manner on this board, so I am not surprised you would do so with this couple.

One other way...ask God to cast it into the sea!:godisgood:

As Marcia stated, I really believe we are talking about two differrent things.

peace to youraying:

 

Interesting, I never thought of corporate laws since that appears to be more of a US church thing. I'm not aware of other denominations outside of the US that incorporate.

I understand anti-discrimination laws to cover areas such as employment, places of residence, etc. I'm not so sure that providing a service such as marriage by a corporation would be covered under anti-discrimination laws. My guess is that many of these incorporated churches also do not allow female pastors and I would see anti-discrimination laws being more legitimately used in that situation.

The Canadian Human Rights Act describes includes the following as discrimination. So if a corporation normally has a service available to the general public and deny access, it can be discrimination. I think allowing people to enter into a church would be such a service but I'm not so sure marriage would be considered a service offered by incorporated churches available to the general public. Of course, that is just for Canada and I'm not sure how each state's law is stated.

 

In Canada, the certificate to perform marriages is issued by the province, which made us civil servants. The wording of the new law covering homosexual "marriages" could have affected us directly if we refused to "marry" gays.

As a group of evangelical ministers, we petitioned the government to change the Act so that we were not forced to marry anyone under civil laws. We further objected to gay "marriages" being called "marriages" and suggested "unions".

This was granted and the Act was changed. We can refuse any couple at our choosing. The best way is to restrict weddings to members of your own church.

Secondly, most organized churches in Canada are incorporated. The reason for this is the tax benefits, issuance of tax receipts to donors and property taxes...exemptions of property tax comes under the provinces, but is protected under the incorporation.

Cheers,

Jim

Having served as pastor in 6 different provinces over 50 years.

 

Thanks for the information and corrections! :thumbs: