General Reconciliation

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Van, Oct 11, 2013.

  1. Van

    Van
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    I do not advocate "universal atonement" but I do advocate "general reconciliation." The difference between general and universal is universal indicates the redemption or reconciliation is applied individually to everybody. I do not think this is what the bible teaches. But Jesus being the propitiation for the whole world, God reconciling the world to Himself, indicates a general redemption of everybody, Jesus paid the ransom for the many. But, if you continue reading in 2 Corinthians 5:18-21, you see that being reconciled does not indicate you have "received" the reconciliation individually, that is why we have the ministry of reconciliation. Therefore the difference is in who has "received" the reconciliation. And this occurs when God places us individually "in Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:30)

    Here is a summary of Particular Reconciliation and General Reconciliation


    Particular Reconciliation:
    (1) God preselected folks for salvation before creation
    (2) Christ came and died for those folks - limited atonement
    (3) God gives those folks faith in Christ, then accepts their faith and places them in Christ.

    General Reconciliation
    (1) God selected Christ to redeem mankind before creation. Therefore those chosen and placed in Christ during their lifetime through belief in the truth were corporately chosen as the target group of His redemption plan before the foundation of the world.
    (2) Christ came and died for mankind in general but not specifically for each individual.
    (3) God chooses folks and places them in Christ after accepting their faith and reckoning it as righteousness.​

    The first point of difference centers on the meaning of Ephesians 1:4 which says we (born again believers) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means being chosen as foreseen individuals. General Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world and anyone subsequently redeemed by the Lamb was corporately chosen because you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem..

    The second point of difference centers on the meaning of 1 John 2:2 which says He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that Jesus is the propitiation not only for elect Jews but also for elect Gentiles. General Reconciliation maintains that Christ is the propitiation not only for Jews or believers, but also for everybody else, the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice provides the means of salvation, the mechanism of reconciliation. When God puts a believer spiritually in Christ they “receive” the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice.

    The third point of difference centers on the meaning of Romans 4:5 which says but to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. Particular Reconciliation maintains the “his faith” was supernaturally given to him by God because the unregenerate are spiritually unable to trust in Christ. General Reconciliation maintains “his faith” is the individual’s trust in Christ, because if it were God’s gift of faith, it would not need to be reckoned as righteousness.
     
    #1 Van, Oct 11, 2013
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  2. Van

    Van
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    2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who (H)bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

    Did Christ die just for the church, or for everyone including the church?
    The verse above clearly teaches even unrepentant folks bound for swift destruction were "bought" with the blood of Christ. Therefore Christ died for everyone, providing "General Reconciliation."
     
  3. Van

    Van
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    If limited atonement is shown be be a mistaken doctrine by 2 Peter 2:1, what does that say about the rest of the TULI? Why would God purchase everyone, including false teachers, if He had already (before creation) chosen an elect few? He would not. And if He did not, then the opportunity for salvation through faith in Christ is available, because God chooses those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Thus our election is through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

    Therefore 2 Peter 2:1 basically causes the whole house of cards of Calvinism's TULI to collapse.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Your views here are correct. We don't often find that on either that Calvinist or Arminian view of Atonement - so I say "well done"!

    The NIV translates 1John 2:2 as "atoning Sacrifice". In your other thread on the translation of this word - you are correct to point to it as the mercy seat in Lev 16.

    But in this case it references the Lev 16:15 - sin offering being slain. And as 1John 2:2 points that atoning sacrifice is not just for the saved saints (both Jew and Gentile) but also for the Whole World for as 1 John 4 states God sent His son to be the "Savior of the World".

    Where the Arminian poster often falls short is in supposing that the "Atoning Sacrifice" of 1John 2:2 and Lev 16:15 is all there is to the entire broad subject of Atonement - as God introduced it in Lev 16.

    But God tells us that not only must there be atoning sacrifice (Lev 16:15) but there must also be the work of the High Priest in the sanctuary - as we see in Heb 9 - and in 1John 2:1 "If anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father" and in Heb 9 His blood cleanses us from dead works as He performs His work in the heavenly Sanctuary.

    That is an ongoing work - where He continues to serve as our High Priest. .Thus the individual enters into that atonement - that Gospel forgiveness because the atoning work continues for us in Heaven. Not the completed sacrifice but applying the benefits of that sacrifice to the lost sinner and to the repenting saint.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    Jesus death was an actual propiation for sinners, actual payment made for their sins, so IF all were included in His death, than all would be saved !

    or else sinnrs stuck in hell whose sins were reconciled and atoned for by Christ, and God willed that His death would save them, and yet our free will stopped Him from executing salvation?
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Jesus' death on the cross is the Lev 16:15 killing of the sin offering - the "Atoning Sacrifice" as 1John 2:2 points out.

    "The atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD" - for as 1John 4 says - God sent Christ to be the "savior of the WORLD".

    But the atoning sacrifice alone - ends at Lev 16:15 on the "Day of Atonement" MORE SCRIPTURE is there - telling us what happens AFTER the atoning sacrifice is completed.

    ALL of it must be completed for atonement to be completed according to Lev 16.

    Christ is doing that work in heaven according to Heb 8 and 9.

    Thus as each person engages in the Gospel - accepts Christ as savior, is born again they receive the benefits of the atonement.

    No need to "limit God" at the cross - as the Calvinists have imagined.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    It is simple to disprove both yours and Vans interpretation of 1 Jn. 2:2. You are correct that the Levitical sacrifice was in view. However, the Levictical sacrifice was not sacrified FOR the Gentile nations but only for the Israelites who were a type of the elect AND for gentile proselytes included in the "mixed multitude" that came out of Egypt with them. Both are types! The first is a type of Christ and the cross and the second is the type for WHOM the sacrifice was made - elect Jews AND Gentiles.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Even non-Christian Jews today admit that the Day of Atonement service of Lev 16 is the day on which God "judges the WORLD" not simply "the Jews".


    In the OT God says "My House shall be called a house of prayer for ALL Nations".

    In Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath...shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" speaking of the New Heavens and New Earth.

    Isaiah contains a number of examples where "ALL the ends of the earth" are called upon to see God as the Savior.

    The role of the saints today is the "holy nation and royal Priesthood" - evangelists - role given to Israel in the OT.

    The OT itself provides promises to gentiles who choose to worship God.

    Thus the doctrine on "Atonement" in Lev 16 is not a doctrine about "God arbitrarily caring about a few but not the World".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    What they admit is not only wrong as the day of atonement represents the cross not the final day of judgement but irrelevant as we are not talking about judgement, much less, final judgment but ATONEMENT!


    The same OT limits who can enter the temple and participate also! NO UNCIRCUMCISED PERSON can enter that sancturary or don't you know that? The book of Leviticus and Deuteronomy explicit limit who can enter the house of God for worship and it eliminates THE VAST MAJORITY of people on earth as the vast majority are UNCIRCUMCISED. Don't you remember how even elect Israel had to sanctify themselves to approach Mount Sinai! No, the Old Testament does not support general atonement at all in any way shape or form.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    The last point (#3) is incorrect. We believe one is "CREATED in Christ Jesus" by regeneration and that is inclusive of faith (Eph. 2:6, 8,10), Some of our oldest Confessions explicit state that "repentance and faith" are the "fruits" of regeneration not the cause of it (See 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, 1733 New Hamphire Confession of Faith).


    As you admitted Ephesians 1:4 speaks of US being chosen IN HIM before the world began NOT Christ being chosen as the Lamb before the world!! Other texts make that clear but NOT THIS TEXT as this text does not even say or teach or mean that but means exactly what it says! So don't tell us what it means when what you claim it means is contrary to what it literally says! There is a big difference between say Christ was chosen before the world began versus WE were chosen IN HIM before the World began!

    This "corporate" election idea is totally foreign to Scriptures and one must absolutely pervert the Word of God to sustain such an idea.​
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Even non-Christian Jews today admit that the Day of Atonement service of Lev 16 is the day on which God "judges the WORLD" not simply "the Jews".

    Just as Paul reminds us that "WE must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" 2Cor 5 - -not "just Jews". (obviously).

    And in Romans 2:13-16 the gentiles are judged in that future judgment when God judges all "according to my Gospel".


    Thus even non-Christian Jews get this obvious point from the Bible - as they study the "Day of Atonement" in Lev 16.

    That is not correct. In Heb 9 and 10 we are reminded that all the animal sacrifices (including those on the Day of Atonement) are collapsed into one single Sacrifice - of Christ on the cross. Thus not only is He the Passover Lamb, He is also the sin offering (the Lord's goat) of Lev 16:15. (obviously). So this argument is not helping you when it comes to 1John 2:2 and the fact that Christ is the "Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

    Even before the cross "God so loved the WORLD that He gave..." yes really.

    Which is what ATonement includes. "According to my GOSPEL" as Paul notes in Romans 2:13-16.

    The "everlasting Gospel" of Rev 14:6-7 begins with the message "the hour of His Judgment has come".

    Those who have studied the "Day of Atonement" are very clear on the judgment aspect -- and how it fits with the 2Cor 5:10 statement that "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".



    The OT relies on the nation church of Israel for evangelism. In the NT it is the "persecuted church" that does the evangelism.

    Because "God so Loved the WORLD that HE gave"... yes really.

    And God "Does not CHANGE" as we find in Malachi 3 and in Hebrews 13 "Christ is the SAME yesterday today and forever".

    Hence the model we have of God promoting world wide evangelism in the OT.

    A. Is 42:6-7 Israel “a light to the nations” Is 49:6 so my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth (Acts 13:46-47)
    B. Jer 12:14-16 Nations to be evangelized – to worship God
    C. Is 45:22-23 Turn to Me and be saved ALL the ends of the Earth…that to Me EVERY knee should bow
    D. 2Chron 6:32-33 Dedication of Solomon’s temple – prayer for gentiles prayer for their worship at the temple who are not Jews who are still among other nations 1Kings 8:41-43 “That ALL people may fear Thee AS do Thy people
    E. Ps 67:ALL God blesses Israel to reach all the ends of the earth – that all should fear Him
    F. Deut 10:18 God loves Gentile Nations
    G. God’s salvation and glory to be proclaimed among the nations – they are to come before Him … worship the Lord in Holy Array 1Chron 16:23-31
    H. Zech 8:20-23 Nations will come to the Lord’s House in prayer to seek His favor
    I. Micah 4:2 Nations will come and say “come let us go up to the mountain of the Lord…that He may teach us His ways that we may walk in HIS paths”


    Hence even in Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath...shall ALL MANKIND come before Me and worship" - in the New heavens and New Earth.


    Is 56
    4 For thus says the Lord,
    “To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
    And choose what pleases Me,
    And hold fast My covenant,
    5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
    And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
    I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.
    6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
    To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
    To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
    And holds fast My covenant;
    7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain

    And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
    Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
    For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”



    The OT was very much concerned with spreading the Gospel -- through the model of the earthly sanctuary types explaining the Gospel.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Oct 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2013
  12. The Biblicist

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    Romans 2:13-16 deals with the satisfaction of the Laws demands as presented in the gospel by Christ who satisfied the Law’s demand for a sinless life for eternal life and a full penalty paid in full for sin. That is the STANDARD by which the LOST world will be judged and that is what the context of Romans 2:6-16 is dealing with – the LOST world who stands before God based upon ONLY their OWN WORKS instead of the finished works of Christ in behalf of sinners as presented in the gospel. You have no clue, no understanding of this text or context and without God’s divine intervention you never will.



    The only sense in which the day of atonement represents the final day of judgement is for GOD’S PEOPLE ALONE whose sins are reconciled by the sacrifice which represents Christ. The sacrifice does not represent the lost world or their judgment in the final day. The day of Atonement does not represent ANYONE OUTSIDE of Christ nor does it represent the final day of judgment for the lost. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

    Quote:
    but irrelevant as we are not talking about judgement, much less, final judgment but ATONEMENT!
    The gospel presents the STANDARD which the Law demands to be satisfied in the person and work of Christ – a sinless righteous life and full penalty paid. The context has nothing to do with believers in Christ whom Christ has already supplied and satisfied that standard fully in their behalf (Jn. 5:24). The context is dealing with those who stand before God on the basis of THEIR OWN WORKS ONLY thinking that their life meets that standard. Look at the verses immediately preceding (vv. 1-5) and following (vv. 17-26).

    There is no need of the gospel apart from the coming day of Judgement. The gospel SUPPLIES complete satisfaction NOW of God’s judgement against sin (Jn. 5:24) and supplies eternal life now (Jn. 11:26) so what has been QUICKENED or MADE ALIVE NEVER DIES even though the body dies. However, the day of judgement was not and is not represented in the atonement except by SUBSTITUTION for the elect who alone provided the atonement money, who alone were represented by Israel rather than the world at large.

    They are wrong, and abundantly wrong! Judgement has already occurred for every blood bought child of God (Jn. 5:24) and they are already dead to the Law in regard to its penalty (Rom. 7:1-5) and there is no future coming judgement for true children of God (Jn. 5:24) except for the judgement of rewards for saints (1 Cor. 3:11-15) which 2 Cor. 5:10 refers to.


    Thus admission of your error in using the Old Testament day of atonement for those OUTSIDE of Israel! Only those proseylting by Israel, circumcised by Israel were permitted into the house of God. So the “house of God” was a house of prayer for all nations, meaning all kinds without distinction who were circumcised by Israel but excluded all who were not circumcised (type of new birth).

    I will not entertain you cultic false dogma of the Saturdarian Sabbath nonsense
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Oct 22, 2013
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  13. BobRyan

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    Until you actually read 2Cor 5:10 "we must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ"

    And until you actually read Romans 2:13-16.

    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    We will read it "again" -- slowly. "We" --- "Must" -- "ALL" (Paul is in that "we")

    2Cor 5:10 "we must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ"

    Romans 2:13-16.

    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
     
    #13 BobRyan, Oct 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2013
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    If you are happy being ignorant than let you be ignorant! 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 also speaks of a judgment of Christians but it is clear that there is a complete loss of all good works and yet the "soul" is stilled saved regardless if you apply this to church builders or any other Christian obeying their particular calling according to their particular measure of faith and grace.

    So if you had an objective bone in your body you would readily realize that there is a judgement that only Christians stand before which has NOTHING to do with entrance into heaven but for rewards IN heaven - 1 Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:10 as Paul does not speak of TWO different judgements for Christians to THE SAME CONGREGATION but only ONE. Jesus plainly says that Christians will not come into judgement (Jn. 5:24) in regard to heaven versus hell.

    I have proven by the context so many times that Romans 2:6-11 has nothing to do with true born again Christians but with lost self-righteous hypocrits (vv. 1-5, 17-25) and nothing about grace but all about law and nothing about Chist's provision but all about self-righteous works that its pathetic to deal with it again! Paul is telling WORKERS OF THE LAW and SELF-RIGHTEOUS Gentiles that they will be judged by the Law according to just rules and with just consequences - this text has nothing to do with Christians or with salvation by grace. The gospel is mentioned and will be used in the day of judgement as the CRITERIA of what the Law demands for all who would come before God ON THE BASIS FOR THEIR OWN WORKS without Christ. They will have to be a sinless as Christ to pass the judgment. You have no clue about the gospel of grace but are one of those Paul addresses as a perverter of the gospel of grace and lawmonger.
     

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