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I answered your question. I was not being "patronizing." I had referenced the biblical basis before. Mind reading is virulent on this forum with folks claiming they know my motives, but what is actually going on is they are assuming the worst, and certainly not that my attitude is love of my brothers and sisters. Rather than accept my efforts at building others up, folks claim all sorts of petty behavior, none of it true.

 

Fair enough, apologies for reading it the wrong way.

 

I beg to differ. The original Quakers said that it is true that there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved except Jesus, but it is not the "outward" knowledge which is essential, but the inward, experiential knowledge. And there are many scriptures that affirm the same; I have cited some of them elsewhere. Or do you believe a just, merciful, and loving God would send someone to hell based on unavoidable ignorance? I do not, and the Bible affirms God does not do this.

 

Yes we read our Bibles differently

First, I agree salvation is based on whether God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness or not. It is not based on doctrine, but on a genuine love of Christ and a willingness to march through fire for our Lord. However, there is no other name under heaven whereby a person may be saved.

Now the idea of "believing in the name of Jesus" means we believe in what we have learned about Jesus from second hand sources, rather than from interacting with Jesus in the flesh 2000 years ago. Thus Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the Anointed One chosen to redeem us as the Lamb of God.

Would God send someone to Hell (i.e. Hades and Gehenna) due to unavoidable ignorance? Nope. How about being conceived in iniquity, and spiritually dead, separated from God. Yes. My view is not supported by a generalized assertion, i.e. a loving and just God would not do this, but on specific scriptures, i.e. John 3:18 says we are condemned already because of unbelief. Therefore before you believe, you are not uncondemned, but condemned already. When did this unbelief, i.e. lack of belief in the name of Jesus occur? At conception. We were "by nature" children of wrath before we were chosen.

Now if you would like to present the scriptures used to support salvation of the innocent, I will be glad to consider it once again. However, when actually studied the arguments from scripture, rather than from an assumed behavior by a loving God, collapse like a deck of cards.

 

whatever the term 'god crediting" it towards us due to faith does NOT mean our faith is the basis of salvation, for THAT is due to the death of jesus upon the Cross!

 

Not sure I wanted to get into this again, but here are a few scripture passages which I mentioned in other places: John 1:9; Titus 2;11, Romans Chapter 2. The issue is settled with me, so I really have no desire to debate it. You and others can believe as you will.

 

Lets have a look:

John 1:9: There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. The assertion here is that this verse means God gives the gospel light to everyone, including those who never heard the gospel. The actual message is the world did not know Him. Therefore they had not been enlightened. Thus as many as received him, even those who believed in His name, to them He gave the right to become children of God. So the context of the verse clearly teaches the assertion, universal enlightenment, is mistaken doctrine.

Titus 2:11: 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, The assertion here is that to bring salvation to all men, it means all men understand and either accept or reject it. However, once again this assertion is mistaken. The first soil of Matthew 13 had the gospel presented, yet it remained unknown. So again the actual idea is the gospel of Christ provides the means of salvation to all men, but not all men are able to avail it. For example no one comes to Jesus unless drawn by the Father, and therefore, if you do not hear or learn, i.e. accept, embrace, the gospel, you are not drawn, just as the first soil was not drawn. John 12:32 says if I be high and lifted up, I will draw all men. But again, the idea is the men must "behold" Christ dying for them on the cross, and that insight escapes those who have hardened their hearts, and those who never "behold" i.e. never hear the gospel in the first place.

Romans 2 teaches we condemn ourselves by treating others differently than we treat ourselves, we do not do unto others as we would have them do unto us. So even though we never heard the gospel, we piled up wrath against ourselves. Verse 6 teaches God will render to every one according to his or her deeds. Thus if a child dies before doing anything good or bad, (see Romans 9) he has not stored up any wrath. But he or she remains condemned and separated from God due to unbelief, John 3:18.

Now verse 7 must be understood to apply to folks who have been born again, thus able to do good. Before that, all our works of righteousness are filthy rags.

In verse 13 we have another verse that teaches we can be justified by being "doers" of the Law, which refers to "love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. The only folks able to keep those commandments and thus be doers of the law, are born again folks, made perfect in Christ.

At the end of the passage we see that folks without the Law violate the law written on their hearts, and those with the law violate it, so everyone is under condemnation, and ignorance of the Law does not provide justification.

Bottom line, there is no actual support for salvation of the innocent in scripture, but there is support for God rendering to the innocent such as babies and the feeble minded according to their deeds, which suggests a lack of punishment because they have not done anything bad.

 

Well, of course I strongly disagree with your interpretations, but also of course you knew that. I suppose there is no need to go further.

 

Why is it not our issue. If a good Muslin dies without ever hearing the gospel of Christ, would he go to Hades and Gehenna without an opportunity, or would God send him a dream or vision and provide him with the opportunity? I say no, you suggest yes is a possibility. This is not an orthodox view.

Knowledge of Jesus, i.e. His name, is required for salvation.
I know the doctrine is obscure and it is no wonder you have never understood it. Try googling "Sola Fide."

 

Here is a link to an article that lays out the various "salvation of the ignorant" views.

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/salvati...3-those-who-have-never-heard-survey-major-pos

 

Well...Rahab was eventually made an Israelite, so she became a party to the whole of God's Revelation. She responded to the news of the coming of the Israelites with fear..."The beginning of wisdom", but she isn't an example of anyone who was "saved" outside of full and complete knowledge of God's "salvific" plan that was made known to all Israel.

Well....he called him "Lord", and he begged for Christ to "remember him"....that is sufficient for anyone I would think. We know his heart was repentant, and he accepted "Who" Christ was by proclaiming Christs Divinity. Although, no, he certainly didn't quite understand all the ends and outs of atonement. I don't think that is necessary for anyone in today's day and age. I think we tend to assume too often, in this day and age, that for salvation....one must be able to recite the "Four Spiritual Laws"...and explain what being "born again" means in detail. I don't think that is true. I do see what you are saying in at least the sense that to cry out to Jesus for salvation with a contrite and repentent heart is sufficient, and we sometimes preach as though that heart condition is insufficient. It really is enough though. Reading John Newton's account of his own salvation doesn't quite read to us as modern-day Baptists of an account of going forward at the invitation time at a Billy Graham crusade, and "being born again" and "asking Jesus into his heart" and "getting saved" and all those other buzz-words we often associate with salvation. He just cried out to God for mercy...and using his own words....I think that is the source of some of our confusion sometimes on these topics. We have sort of made the entire thing more formal and complicated than it really is.

 

Excellent article...thanks :thumbsup:

 

ALL jews that were save din the OT are saved by same thing we now are, by the atonement of jesus upon the Cross as propiation for sins!

the elected out ones would have been saved by grace thru faith on the basis of the Messiah to come, as we today are save same way by he who already had come!

And Muslims/jews/gentiles etc...

ALL of us are sinners who need the Grace of God in order to save us now!

God knows those whom He has ordained to be saved by jesus death, and he will provode the means for them to somehow hear the good news and to get saved!

 

The problem is that NONE can be saved apart from the special revelation of God in Christ, which is preached by the Gospel of Christ!