Genesis 1-2 - a perfect paradise?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by 4study, Aug 1, 2003.

  1. 4study

    4study
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    I’m starting this thread as result of some thoughts branching from a current thread entitled “Real Gospel or Psuedo-Gospel”. Here, I question the mainstream teaching of Genesis 1-3.

    The majority of Christians believe God’s creation, as recorded in Gen. 1 and 2, the universe, sun, moon, stars, earth, plants, animals, and the human race, was pure, holy, and complete. A “paradise” of sorts in which darkness, sin, death, or any other evil did not exist. Furthermore, many believe this created order if left untainted would exist eternally in its perfection. The transgression of Gen. 3, as many see it, threw the “paradise” of God into chaos transforming it into a dark, sinful, evil world which only the grace of God could remedy. As a result, God sent His only begotten Son into the world, etc., etc.

    If you agree with this synopsis, at least to some extent, I ask you the following question;

    Why do you believe this and what Biblical support is there for it?
     
  2. Paul of Eugene

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    Just a thought, but earthly TV and radio might be considered morally polluting - true? And those signals are gradualling proceding out from out planet now to a distance of a couple hundred light years -

    Otherwise, I personally think the corruption effects of Adam's sin are confined to the area Adam and his progeny have been able to affect. This leaves most of the universe untouched.
     
  3. 4study

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    Paul of Eugene,

    So?

    Do you believe the earth would have been "uncorrupted" and thus remained a "paradise" in which the human race could live eternal, untainted, changeless lives if Adam had not transgressed?
     
  4. Paul of Eugene

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    Not changeless. Growth, man, growth! Perhaps, too, there would be a departing from this world under conditions that are very different from what we know as "death".

    I'd say the final picture in Revelation as to the situation for mankind is what we would have eventually gotten to anyway if we had not sinned, but by a different, more blessed route, of course.
     
  5. HankD

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    Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
     
  6. 4study

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    Paul of Eugene,

    Interesting. That's what I believe. However, I I do not think it would have been by a "different, more blessed route". God's purpose does not change. Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. So regardless of Gen. 3, the only way the second heaven and earth occur is by the death of Christ.
     
  7. 4study

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    HankD,

    I'm not sure how to respond to your post since it does not contain any commentary. What are you suggesting Romans 8:18-23 says in light of this topic?
     
  8. Paul of Eugene

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    Interesting. That's what I believe. However, I I do not think it would have been by a "different, more blessed route". God's purpose does not change. Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. So regardless of Gen. 3, the only way the second heaven and earth occur is by the death of Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, in my thinking it was God's foreknowledge that made it possible for Jesus to be the Lamb slain "before the foundation of the world". If our race had not fallen, surely the cross would not have been necessary, and this world would be very different in every way!
     
  9. 4study

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    Paul of Eugene,

    So in other words, Adam had to transgress?

    I’ll also assume you believe Adam, before the transgression, was a perfect, pure, and holy creature. True?

    Also, consider how Adam knows God. Is it via Christ, the mediator, or not?
     
  10. Artimaeus

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    Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

    What part of this doesn't live up to YOUR standards of good things? How would you improve on the work done by God? What did He leave out that would have made it better? What did He include that he shouldn't have?
     
  11. 4study

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    Artimaeus,

    This all depends upon what you believe "good" means. According to your post, I assume you believe it means, "holy", "pure", or "uncorrupt". If so, what leads you to believe this?

    I believe "good" in Gen. 1:31 means "complete in its purpose". Of course, whatever purpose God designs in this sense is "very good". Nothing is missing. It is just as what it is supposed to be. But this does not mean it is equal with God. I believe the creation, and the culmination of it, Adam, is short of His glory and thus wholly dependant upon Him.
     
  12. Artimaeus

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    It means he was very pleased with what He had done. He gave it a very pleasant [​IMG]

    It was certainly uncorrupt. It was pure in the sense of no impurities, and it was holy in the sense of being set apart (designated) for the purpose of God. It was, indeed, "complete in its purpose". The attribute of perfection leads me to believe that anything God does, He does to perfection.

    He was not attempting to create another God so, it was well short of His glory (no omniscience for Adam) but, still 100% "good". He created an absolutely perfect world, in mint condition, with absolutely nothing wrong with it. Every minute detail was just exactly what it ought to be. He had omnipotent power to do it anyway He wanted to. He is omniscient and therefore, knows exactly how everything ought to be. He is omnipresent and theregore, nothing slipped by Him without His being aware of and controlling it first hand.

    When God said it was "very good", this was the alpha moment for the second law of thermodynamics. It could not have been better or more perfect.
     
  13. 4study

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    Artimaeus,

    I agree with your sentiments, however, the predominant teaching is that God's creation as "very good" ought to have stayed that way. In other words, "very good" is also often said to carry the idea of "completely finished", as if it were the pinnacle of God's purpose. I, for one, do not believe this. I believe the creation of Genesis 1&2 is the beginning but certianly not the ending. Many teach otherwise. This is what I'm alluding to in my opening statement in this thread. The majority teach and believe that Genesis 1&2 is God's destiny for mankind. With this in mind as well as the transgression of Genesis 3, it is also taught that God's purpose is to get mankind back to the "perfect paradise" of Eden which Adam's sin "messed up".

    Do you agree with this?
     
  14. HankD

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    These same words very good (Hebrew: tov mod) are used in Judges 18:9, obviously after the sin of Adam.

    Judges 18:9 And they said, Arise, that we may go up against them: for we have seen the land, and, behold, it is very good: and are ye still? be not slothful to go, and to enter to possess the land.

    4study,
    To indirectly answer your inquiry to my reference without comment of Romans 8...

    Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    Does the "very good" of the Genesis 1 creation include the "groaning and travailing in pain" of the Romans 8 creation?

    HankD
     
  15. Paul of Eugene

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    No, of course Adam didn't HAVE to transgress! Where there is no freedom, there is no responsibility! Prior to the fall, Adam knew God directly. After the fall, like all of us, Adam was separated from God and had to choose to accept redemption by repentance and faith, like every other human being who gets redeemed. I suppose he did that. Look forward to meeting him in heaven, along with Eve and Seth and everybody else.
     
  16. 4study

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    HankD,

    Possibly. I don't count the curse resulting from Adam's transgression as having no affect upon the creation, however, I do not go to the opposite extreme and count the creation in Gen. 1&2 as being the completion of God's purpose. In other words, I believe that from the beginning, regardless of sin or transgression, there was to be a "second heaven and earth".
     
  17. 4study

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    Paul of Eugene,

    So you're saying there are TWO ways to know God. One way is that in which Adam knew God "directly", as you put it, a second way is that in which we must come to know God via redemption. Are you certain about that? Is this supported by Scripture?

    As I understand, there is, always has been, and always will be one way to know God. For there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

    According to you, Adam, before the transgression, knew God without a mediator. Would you mind explaining this? Scripture?
     
  18. Matt Black

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    Some questions on this issue:-

    1. Did Adam and Eve trip up and hurt themselves?

    2. Did wasps sting?

    3. if either of the above is true, did Adam and Eve experience pain in the same way we do ie as a 'bad thing'?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  19. Paul of Eugene

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    So you're saying there are TWO ways to know God. One way is that in which Adam knew God "directly", as you put it, a second way is that in which we must come to know God via redemption. Are you certain about that? Is this supported by Scripture?

    As I understand, there is, always has been, and always will be one way to know God. For there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

    According to you, Adam, before the transgression, knew God without a mediator. Would you mind explaining this? Scripture?
    </font>[/QUOTE]I would certainly go along with the idea that when Adam walked and talked with God in the garden, it was a pre-incarnate manifestation of Christ with whom he was dealing. It's just not spelled out as such in the Genesis text.
     
  20. Paul of Eugene

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    Not in their perfect state. Wasps had their stingers outside the garden; within the garden, Adam and Eve were protected from such things. If on occasion in their blessed estate Adam felt a "pain" I'm sure he took it as valuable information about the consequences of the particular action that brought it about, but I don't know if that ever happened to him in his unfallen state.
     

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