Genesis 3.22

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Mar 2, 2003.

  1. Frogman

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    "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

    Then '...God sent him forth from the garden of Eden...' [​IMG] to finish the context immediately.

    Before vs. 22 is given the type of the substitute sacrifice pointing man to the promise given in Gen. 3.15.

    If God knew man could choose of his own will (assuming this will to be free), why did God not want man to '...put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:'

    Seeing, as is supported by 'free-willers', but not truly Arminius, that man is able to choose this life from a free-will, what is it that God did not want man to live forever in, that is what condition? And why did He send His only begotten Son to be the substitute for man, only to raise man from a condition that is only tainted, but not depraved, especially seeing man, though tainted could any time deliver himself by just believing God? :confused:

    If man retained the 'attributes' of God into which he was created, then why would God not permit the eating of this fruit (of life) and thus grant eternal life? :(

    If there is not a depraved condition from which man must be redeemed and man does in fact retain the above 'attributes' why is it that Christ is said to restore that which He did not take away? [​IMG]

    What gifts did He receive for men?, if these are only separated from man by his free-will choice? (Ps. 68.18 and Eph. 4.8).

    These are questions free-willers cannot answer, because their system depends upon the 'free-will' of man. [​IMG]

    Just some questions for you to chew on. :D

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  2. Yelsew

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    My apology for the lengthy response, but your post requires it.
    To answer your question, it is because created man disobeyed God and to have an eternity of disobedience from his creation would be untenable. So God banished man from the Garden where the tree of Life was available to man. do you think that Adam and Eve knew that the tree of life would make them live forever?

    Same type of Question, Why did God create man to begin with when He knew before creation that man would sin because God gave him the free will choice to do so, and allowed the temptation to which man would succumb? You see, there are no surprises for an omniscient God!
    I don't like your phraseology, but the answer is, "Disobedience of God!" But that choice has been used up.

    We cannot use that choice anymore because Adam and Eve used it. It is the choices we make today that are important, not the choice that Adam and Eve made then. Their choice brought on the condition in which we find ourselves. Their's got man banished from the Garden "in accordance with the plan", now it is up to us to choose whether the evidence against us is sufficient for our conviction and "plea bargain for our defense", or whether to simply go on living in sin with its sure result.

    We weigh the evidence, with the Holy Spirit affirming the truth, then we decide that we are guilty and in need of a savior and plead for mercy for our guilty soul. This of course assumes that we believe there is a choice. If you do not believe there is a choice, then you go on passively rejecting Jesus who is knocking at your heart's door.
    There are few things that terrorize humanity and arouse enmity like a serpent, and unless man encroaches on the snakes lair face first, the most likely spot for a snake to strike a human is around the heal, and the best way to kill a snake is to smash its head. Yes I recognize the symbolism of the offspring of woman and the serpent. But I believe it to be just a bit farfetched to make that connection based on the context of verse 15 which is the second part of an overall thought! But when you want scripture to say something, you can make it say just about anything you want it to!
    He did not take away our innocense and relationship with the Father. But he did come to restore us to the father and by Atoning for our sins with His blood, he presents us to the Father as "innocent".

    I see that you are confused about "attributes" and "gifts", they are not the same.

    When man sinned and was banished from the garden, the human attributes were not lost, and since gifts were not necessarily needed in the Garden, there were none of them to lose, except the direct communion of man with God. No longer could man who is now sinful, walk with and talk with God who is Holy, as it is described for Adam and God before sin. The innocense and relationship with God that man enjoyed in the Garden was lost. But man remained the same that God had made him having the same things true of him that were true of him in the garden.

    Attributes are that which is true of the one having them, and include Grace, Love, Mercy, Justice, Faith, and others. Virtually every human has these attributes.

    Gifts, on the other hand, include things such as "speaking in tongues", "healing the sick", sheltering the homeless, feeding the hungry, preaching the word of God, singing (well), etc., for man and for Jesus, the paramount Gifts he Gives to man include, for starters, "the living bread" "the Light", "the Life", "the new purification".

    While everyone has the same attributes, not all humans are given the same gifts.
    Paul says it this way,
    In spite of the gifts, All mankind is commanded to Love your neighbor, To be merciful, To live Graciously, To have faith, to treat others justly. Man must possess these attributes in order to exercise them as commanded! And let me add that every world religion contains the same instructions to its adherents! So, it is universally known that man possesses attributes that were given in the divine order of Life.

    Regarding Attributes, A.W.Tozer says this of God's Attributes.
    God gave man attributes, that which is true of man, that work the same way in man as Divine Attributes work in God. That is, Love in man cannot be dispensed like candy in fancy little wrappers. Love in man stays with the one having it (we all do), and when man is perceived of having love he is simply being himself.
     
  3. Frogman

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    I guess Genesis 3.21-23 are too strong for the Arminians to gather a free-will rally against.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. Yelsew

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    If you won't accept truth, what will you accept?
     
  5. wolldog

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    Yelsew,
    I find it greatly disturbing something that you said,
    The part that worries me is when you say that love is part of man. That can by no means be. The only love a man may have is for himself. Given, there are other types of love like that of a husband and wife, but true love as say, is an attribute of God and God only.
    This verse says that if you love others, God dwells in you. If you believe that then there is no way that you can say that all men love because there is no way you can say that God dwells in every man. If that were true there would be no need for the relationship with God or evangelism or even a need for Christ, because everyone is saved.

    For the glory of God alone,
    Wolldog
     
  6. Frogman

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    I believe God gave man attributes Yelsew. I also believe these attributes are in bondage, slavery, complete and full to the sin nature which our race has been plunged into.

    I notice in your posts you do recognize the work of the Holy Spirit, thus, saying the Spirit affirms truth, this is essential because it is this which impresses upon man what is to be chosen and not chosen.

    What man can reject God if the Purpose of God is regeneration of that man? In my view none can because the will of God is greater, in the view you offer any can, because the will of man is greater.

    I do not believe scripture agrees with the view you support. You and others may sincerely beleive you weighed the evidence presented to you and made a choice, but you did not do so, your choice was directed beginning to end by the Holy Spirit. This is what is meant by Ps. 110.3 "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power."

    To say man can reject the power of God is imo equivalent to saying who made who. Did God create man? Or is God a creation of man, who is a social creature and has a need for a religious system? I believe Scripture, God is the Potter I am the clay, he can form the clay into whatever type of vessal He desires. He alone has that sovereignty, authority, he alone has the wisdom, He alone possesses the Grace, Love and Mercy for such to be done in complete righteousness and according to the strictest terms of justice that can be imagineable by any man.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  7. Yelsew

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    Wolldog,
    If True love is an attribute of God and God only, then Man cannot possibly have true love regardless of man's state of belief. An attribute is that which is true of the one having it! Attributes cannot be given away, or taken away from the one having them. They cannot be "distributed or dispensed from the one having them! They are the sole possession of the one having them, by which the one having them behaves.

    You obviously do not believe that man is made in the image of God. The beloved Apostle John tells us that God is Love. If we are made in the image of God, then we too have the capacity to love because God made us that way. If man does not have the capacity to love (the attribute), there is no kind of love that man can have, because no one can give the one without love any love, love is not transferrable.

    We can prove that easily by you putting some of your love in an envelope and sending it to me. When I receive your envelope and open it, I will find no love therein, but I may find a sentamental expression of your love either written on paper or a greeting card, or what ever device you use, but I will not find one iota of your love, because you cannot give your love to me. Besides, I already have all the love that I need, and all the love that I will ever have. It is important how we use our love and what the object of our love is.

    Even the most sinful man has the man-wife love, but they also have the parent-child love, and the person-neighbor love, and yes, man is capable of all of these without believing in God or in Jesus the Christ. All you need to do is walk your neighborhood and you will see the evidence. If you don't then you are simply brainwashed. Look at the outpouring of genuine love resulting from 9-1-1. Love is an attribute of man, because God made us that way in the creation. When one becomes a believer, there is a new love added to the rest, and that is agape love, the love of God.
    True, God does not dwell in every man, but that does not stop every man, who is made in the image of God from having the attribute of love. God made all mankind in his image, therefore if God has love, man has love. And the proof is that even the most vile of sinners has love for someone, maybe a mother, or a "sweetheart" or a dog, but the love still exists.

    A clear understanding of the image of God is paramount to the Christian faith and the church. If you do not believe that all mankind is made in the image of God, you will not see the value in mankind that God sees which motivated God to give us his only begotten son to redeem us from our sinful way that sends us to the lake of fire (utter destruction). God recognizes the image of himself in every one of us, and that is why His desire is that none of us perish, but that everyone of us will come back to him. And YES, everyone of us has the ability to choose God rather than sin. We are all made alike in God's eyes, in his image.

    [ March 04, 2003, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
  8. Yelsew

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    Frogman,
    If this is true, the unsaved man cannot have love for a women, not the eros kind of love, but the kind where he "provides for" and "protects" her from all that may harm her, because that is a good kind of love. He would instead love (eros) her and leave her. Yes there are many who do that, but there are many who do not!

    If what you say is true, there would be no mercy among men, yet we see wonderful acts of mercy everywhere. Yes we also see those who behave merciless too, but there are more who are merciful.

    If what you say is true, there would be no Grace among men, yet men act graciously towards men all the time. Yes, we see those who do not behave graciously, but we notice them because they are not the norm.

    If what you say is true, there would be no Justice among men. We are in what is called a war to bring human renegades to justice for the crimes they have done, and those they plan to do. Yes we see those who do not behave or respect justice, but we notice them because they are not the norm.

    Thank you for noticing.

    The purpose of God is the regeneration of all mankind who are made in his image. He does not however force mankind into salvation with one notable exception, Saul who was made Paul. All others were invited to believe. Therefore every man can by his own will reject the invitation regardless of the Holy Spirits influence. As I've said it often before that man becomes a believer by active choice only. But man can fail to believe by either active rejection of the truth or by passively neglecting to choose.

    Thy people? Who was David? Yes, the King of the Jews. What people would he be speaking of? The Jews. David was not omniscient, he did not know God's plan of Salvation else he would have clearly spelled it out for the people for whom he was king. He knew there were other peoples, but he was told that the Jews are God's people.

    OK! God made man, and made him in His own image. God is not in need of man, man is in need of God. Man disobeyed God, and all subsequent men disobey God, we cannot help but disobey because God made us with the ability to disobey, along with all the other abilities that he stuffed into us. Each mans first sin is that of disobedience, thus we are like unto Adam whose first sin was disobedience. By our disobedience we separate ourselves from Holy God. He wants us back and gives us every opportunity to come back before we die the first death (natural death of the flesh). He gave us his Holy Spirit to influence us by bringing to our mind not only who God is and what he wants of us, but also who and what we are. Every human living faces the realities of who and what we are, because the Holy Spirit makes it known to us. Then we must choose between God and ourself. We do that, God doesn't do it for us. But it is OK if you want to believe otherwise, so long as you believe in Jesus, even on his name. For there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved.
     
  9. wolldog

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    Yelsew,

    First I would like to say that I need to correct myself from my last post. Not because of your respons, but because on further inspection of my own post I noticed a very questionable statement. Here is the original statement.

    Here, is the correction. Man has the ability to love, however, it is so distorted by the fall that there is no recognizable form of TRUE LOVE in man. Where do you think lust came from, it was a striving of sinful man to love, and because of the distortion of the love, it became a sinful thing. I would not however say, that it is an attribute of sinful man, it is an ability. That ability is just hindered by the fall. I would say that when you become a christian, you become a new creature and you have all new tendancies and abilities. Therefore, at the conversion from the bondage of sin, we gain the attribute of Christ-like love.

    Also, you say in bold that an attribute is something that determines how someone acts, the paragraph after you say it is the capacity to do something. I would find these two things very different by definition, so which one is it?

    You say that I don't believe that we are made in the image of God and that is absolutely not true. The way you say it, God is love so we have the attribute. God is omnipotent, do we have the attribute of omnipotency? God is omniscient, do we have that attribute? God is sinless, do we have the attribute of perfection?

    Soli Deo Gloria,

    wolldog
     
  10. romanbear

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    Hi Frogman; [​IMG]
    I read these scriptures and didn't get the same thing as you. It's not that I'm trying to be asinine. I really don't see anything in this about freewill. If Adam ate of the tree of life he would have no need of Christ for eternal life but he would be in sin for eternity. The Bible says we reap what we sew. I can attest to the truth of it. I'm still reaping from my mistakes.

    Sin in my opinion is a long way from Heaven and Happiness. If man doesn't receive Christ he will still be in the torment of his sin for eternity the only difference is what? I don't see it. Either way man is still separated from God because of his sin. This would be the torture I most fear.

    I realize that acts 16:31 says the wages of sin is death but it's not the kind of death most think about as death. This is how I understand it and it doesn't mean that it's set in stone.

    The second death is something which still allows consciousness because we are still in torment for eternity. What good would it do to be in torment if we had no awareness.

    IMHO.Freewill is something we have and is why Adam was driven out. To keep him from living forever in his sin. Part of his punishment was that he die. This did not restrict Him from choosing Christ or worship of God his freewill to resist was left intact.

    I resisted for 16 years and some would say I just needed that effectual call. I say I had to open the door so that he would come in to me. He didn't come into me with a battering ram, knocking the door down.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  11. Yelsew

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    Wolldog,
    Incredible, totally incredible. Just what do you think true love is? It is God's love for man, not man's love for anything. God's love, which is an attribute of God, that which is true of God, is infinite, never ending. Human love in this natural life cannot be everlasting until one believes in Jesus the Son of God, the Messiah. Then, because man becomes eternal, man's love, an attribute of man, also becomes eternal.

    Male and female alike lust, it probably is a combination of many things including hormones, which God created in us. But it is more an attribute than anything because we behave in accordance with out attributes.

    The mechanics of "love" is an ability. Love however is an attribute.

     
  12. Frogman

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    Romanbear,

    If you fail to see this connection here it is only because you do not want to see it.

    yelsew,

    God did not give his essence to man, though he did give the attributes you speak of to man, these are depraved because man did not possess (in Adam) the essence of God which Christ (the second Adam), did and does possess. Apart from Christ all men (humankind) are born with these attributes, but they are in bondage to the sin nature man is also born with.

    God did not possess this sin nature, Christ did not, man does.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. romanbear

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    Hi frogman; [​IMG]
    IMHO. [​IMG] Maybe the reverse is true did you think of that?. [​IMG]
    Romanbear
     
  14. tyndale1946

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    Brother Dallas I would just like to add two remaining verses to the ones you quoted... Genesis 3:[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

    [24] So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    Now you freewiller feel free to take of the tree of life :eek: ... Brother Glen :D
     
  15. Frogman

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    yeah, I thought of that Romanbear, then I started reading the Bible for myself and found, as Bro. Glen points out, the way to life is guarded. God knew man would in his fallen state take of the tree of life and thus he expelled him from the presence of that tree. Also, he guarded the way to the tree to turn away any that would attempt to reenter.

    Some beleive it is here where Abel and Cain brought their sacrifices before God. Either way you look at it, it is significant to note that God expelled the man from the presence of the tree, after the fall; before the fall the tree of life was not prohibited.


    Amen Brother Glen.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  16. The Archangel

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    Incredible, totally incredible. Just what do you think true love is? It is God's love for man, not man's love for anything. God's love, which is an attribute of God, that which is true of God, is infinite, never ending. Human love in this natural life cannot be everlasting until one believes in Jesus the Son of God, the Messiah. Then, because man becomes eternal, man's love, an attribute of man, also becomes eternal.

    Male and female alike lust, it probably is a combination of many things including hormones, which God created in us. But it is more an attribute than anything because we behave in accordance with out attributes.

    The mechanics of "love" is an ability. Love however is an attribute.

     
  17. Yelsew

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    How then do you account for all the 50 year plus marriages of unbelievers that are are celebrated every year? How about the 40 year plus marriages", and even the 30 years plus marriages? You see, there are grand contradictions to the strictest-sense reading of the bible. If one insists on the strictest-sense reading of scripture they will automatically overlook, or completely ignore that there are truths the Holy Scriptures do not speak to. Those who practice strictest-sense theology are for the most part fooling themselves.
     
  18. The Archangel

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    Yelsew,

    Boy, oh Boy. You know, I didn't think I was going to have to teach reading on this board. But here goes!

    Yelsew, if you would kindly look again at the previous post you will find that I said this:

    He [Wolldog] is not saying that a man cannot love a woman or a father cannot love his children.

    Wolldog rightly states that because of being fallen beings, as a result of Adam's sin, we do not love (for example) purely.


    Please notice what I wrote and, this time, read before you write.

    Thank you,

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  19. Yelsew

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    I didn't think I'd have to remind you all the time that none can love "purely", That is God love. But the simple fact is that man is capable of great love, long lasting love, intimate love, agape love, and most other adjectives you can attach to love, except pure love. Human love always falls short of God's love. But man has the attribute of Love that enables him to be loveable.

    Look around you, men love! And you only fool yourself when you deny that!
     
  20. Frogman

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    Yet this is not the Love of God, which you want to equate to the love man possesses, which latter love issues forth from a depraved heart, and is founded in the various lusts of man. The Love of God comes from a pure fountain of real love a Love from Which the Creator has provided Himself a Sacrifice. No man ever possessed this Love in any measure before being regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     

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