Gentiles and the Feast of Tabernacles...Is Catholicism wrong?"

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by jimraboin, Jun 16, 2003.

  1. jimraboin

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    Often I have been confronted by my Messianic brothers with the idea that all believing Gentiles must become law observant in order to fully obey ADONAI. Most Messianic's fully acknowledge a state of grace for us Gentiles until we are brought up to speed, so to speak.

    Scriptures are not always clear on this topic as many of you well know. But here is one that seems to indicate some sort of adherence to the Law for all non-Jews. Consider:

    The entire book of Zechariah speaks of both comings of Jesus. First on the cross and then on the Mount of Olives. It speaks of a chronology of events until Jesus splits the mountain. After the cross... after the Church...after the judgement...then the above verses describe how Jesus will rule all mankind for a thousand years.

    Notice that he requires all mankind, believing or not, to observe the Feast of Tabernacles. That particular Feast starts and ends with a Sabbath. Something Gentile institutional Christianity believes God has completely done away with. Second, notice that anybody who desires to offer physical animal sacrifices is not prevented from doing so even during Jesus' physical reign. Consider:

    All pots and pans in Jerusalem will be as holy as the articles in the Holy of Holies. Men will come worldwide and use any pot in Jerusalem for his offering. To me this is a clear indication that many portions of what we consider to be "abolished Law" is still in operation even during the thousand year reign.

    Question: If Jesus requires and permits these things during his physical dynasty on earth, how much more are they in operation now?

    Let's talk about this.

    Jim
     
  2. jimraboin

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    Nobody ever think like this before?

    Jim
     
  3. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    Christ is already on the throne of David and His kingdom is already established, just as He promised that some in His audience would be alive when it came. The kingdom came on Pentecost with the first gospel sermon, and those whom Jesus said would not die until they saw it saw it!

    It is quite evident that the Old Testament sacrificial system will never be reinstated - Jesus fulfilled it. The book of Hebrews plainly shows that none of those OT sacrifices ever removed even one sin - why then would they be brought back? Their purpose was to point to the coming Christ.

    Now then, Zechariah 14:17-19 must be speaking spiritually. The rain is the showers of God's grace, Jerusalem is the church, and the feast of tabernacles is dwelling with the Lord by having a personal relationship with him in the church.

    In verse 20, all the pots being holy to the Lord and the bits in the horses mouth or bell being holy signifies that in the gospel age, all things will be holy. No water is holier than any other water, etc.
     
  4. jimraboin

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    Why must Zechariah be speaking only spiritually? Do you take this position because Gentile Christianity has completely removed all things Jewish from the faith? What if it is literal? And how can we know one way or the other, for certain?

    Jim
     
  5. WPutnam

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    Jim, perhaps we see the answer (or at least part of it) begfinning in Acts 15:1-12? The first thing to go, it seems is the need for circumcision.

    Later, we see the old diatary laws begin their expungement as a Christian requirement...

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
     
  6. jimraboin

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    William,

    It is not as clear as you represent. Why would Paul also say this if your position were true?

    There is a reason Peter tells us Paul's writings are hard to understand. If they were hard for Peter, who was there, how much more should we carefully weigh what Paul says?

    Jim
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Jimraboin,

    I am elated that you, by the Spirit, have been led into this truth and you have not rebelled against it. I too, am still learning the deep things of God.

    I did not know that Messianic Jews expected us to keep the festival days. Galatians tell us that we are delivered from the Law because of Grace. This does not mean we can break the Law but because we are in a state of grace, we don't need the Law as a governor of our lives.

    Question: If Jesus requires and permits these things during his physical dynasty on earth, how much more are they in operation now?

    What we have to keep in mind that this church age is distinct from the old covenant with its animal sacrifice and the keeping of the Law and all the ordinances. Some of the dietary laws if kept would take a few inches off our waist lines, however. The church dispensation is from Pentecost until the rapture of the church into Heaven.

    I had always hoped as a young man that I would be alive when the Lord returned; but as I get older this may not be during my life span. But, then it is not about only one human being. Even after the rapture there will be His theocracy on earth for 1,000 years.

    Dr. Thomas Ice & Timothy Demy co-authors reminds us that animal sacrifices will be the rule of the day during Christ's Millennial reign on this earth. At least four other Old Testament prophets join Ezekiel in affirming a sacrificial system in a Millennnial Temple. See: Isaiah 56:7; 66:20-23; Jeremiah 33:18; Zechariah 14:16-21; Malachi 3:3-4.
    Dr. Ice is executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center in Washington, D.C. He holds an advanced degree from Dallas Theo. Seminary, and a Ph.D. from Tyndale Theo. Seminary. He is the author of many books. Dr. Demy received his Th.M. and Th.D. in Historical Theology from Dallas Seminary. He has served as a Navy chaplain for many years and is presently assigned in Washington, D.C.

    These renewed animal sacrifices will have the function as a memorial to the work of Christ on the Cross. Dr. Jerry Hullinger summarizes this fact. 'According to this view the sacrifices offered during the earthly reign of Christ will be visible reminders of His work on the Cross. Thus, these sacrifices will not have any efficacy except to memorialize Christ's death. The primary support for this argument is the parallel of the Lord's Supper. It is argued that just as the Communion/Eurcharist looks back on the Cross, without besmirching its glory, so Millennial sacrifices will do the same.' (Jerry M. Hullinger, "The Problem of Animal Sacrifices in Ezekiel chapters 40-48, Bibliotheca Sacra 152 {July-September 1995}: p 280.
     
  8. jimraboin

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    Hi Ray,

    Glad to discuss this with you.

    If animal sacrifice and Feast celebrations were occuring before Christ, during Christ, after Christ(up til 2nd Temple was destroyed 70 A.D.) and will continue in Third Temple during Jesus' 1,000 year reign, is Gentile Christianity correct in removing all these things from the faith Jesus requires and permits?

    Jim
     
  9. WPutnam

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    There is a reason Peter tells us Paul's writings are hard to understand. If they were hard for Peter, who was there, how much more should we carefully weigh what Paul says?

    Jim
    </font>[/QUOTE]The problem is, Jim, that Paul goes on to note further down in verse 9 where he asks:

    "Well then, are we better off? Not entirely, for we have already brought the charge against Jews and Greek alike that they are all under the domination of sin." (Catholic NAB)

    I I could go on, noting that the law that the Jew's have been commanded to observe are in and of themselves, insufficient for salvation. The key phrase here, is in and of themselves.

    God judges the heart and a strict observance of the law is now what He is looking for, if that observance is like that of the Pharisees (I am conjecturing here.)

    Please show me where Paul actually approves of the continued observance of the old law of Moses and as spelled-out in Liviticus, please!

    All I seem to see, is, if you insist on observing those old laws, then you will be held accountable for them if you break them!

    But I go too far here...

    Perhaps you can enlighten me further here...

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not
    thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
    Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn
    away his wrath from him.

    Proverbs 24:17-18
     
  10. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    Talking about the same times as Zechariah, "in those days," which are the days of the Messiah, Isaiah says this:

    (Isa 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.)

    He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man

    Since Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice and the only one that can remove sin, those who continue to offer animal sacrifices for sin are guilty of murdering Him.

    he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck

    Since Jesus has fulfilled the animal sacrifice system, the offering of a lamb is now as abominable as the offering of a dog was even under the OT.

    he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood

    Any oblation now is as abominable as swines blood was even when the oblations were acceptable.

    he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol

    He that offers incence in the Messiah's day is an idolator, a Roman Catholic even and not a Christian.

    Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

    Rather than accepting Christ wholly, they wish to continue in the forms of the OT and this is abominable.
     
  11. liafailrock

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    Sola:

    Sorry to disagree, but Christ is NOT presently on the throne of David. He will inherit that throne when He returns. The Eternal throne of David (which according to God's Word) is occupied unto all generations will be given to Jesus as the rightful heir. This is an Earthly throne established forever unto all generations according to Psalm 89. As a matter of fact, the psalmist later laments when the throne appears fallen (which shows he expected it to be an unconditional and eternal covenant). No. That was wrong. It only ceased in Palestine only to continue elsewhere but the Bible prophecied a "breach" in the Genesis 38 story regarding Zarah/Pharez incident. If the throne of David is fallen, then provision of Messiah would also be void since that is the whole essence of the covenant.
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    jimraboin & Sola Scriptura,

    Under the Old Covenant animal sacrifice was God's plan; since the Cross until the conclusion of the age of the Gentiles, meaning up to the time of the rapture, animal sacrifice is wrong because Christ died for the church and those living during the church age.

    What we are saying is that after the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ, He is going to reinstate the sacrificial system as a remembrance of His atoning death on the Cross. You both accept the Holy Communion now as a remembrance looking back to His death by crucifixion. So do I.

    There will be a future Tribulation Temple that the antichrist will desecrate, but after this one there will be Christ's Messianic Temple that will be in Jerusalem. The Lord's great theocracy will spread around the world and all the nations will honor Him. There, of course, will be rebel sinners who will not yield to Him, and He will deal with their unbelief. [Ezekiel 37:21-28] Verses 26 & 28 certify that His Temple will be among His people and the Lord will be present forever among His flock, the Lord's people. In Israel they will be for the most part Jews but Gentiles from around the world will love and serve Him.

    'The presence and purpose of sacrifices as understood above neither diminishes the work of Christ, nor violates the normal and literal interpretation of the prophetic message.' {Drs. Ice and Demy}

    When quasi-theologians spiritualize all of the Old Testament the real message is destroyed as to His Millennial Temple and the 'throne of his father, David. While the Lord will have his co-regents around the world yet Christ will be the sovereign and theocratic Head of His Kingdom on this earth. [Zechariah 14:16 & Malachi 3:1-4] It could be within a few short years that our Lord will ' . . . suddenly come to His Temple, even the Messenger of the covenant.'

    Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Jerusalem called the city of David.
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    liafailrock,

    I agree with your post but had perhaps had forgotten about your reference to the 'breach.'

    Some of the brethren don't think Abraham's covenant was an eternal promise to all of us and to Israelites because they only see the immediate picture and either refuse to see or are in unbelief about the Lord Who will in the future reinstate/graft them ' . . . into their own Olive tree, [Romans 11:24] and keeping His promise of His everlasting covenant with human beings.

    The man from Ohio, Carson Watson, does not distinguish between Jesus being at the right hand of the Father and the fact that one day, this same Jesus will sit on the throne of his father David. But in order for the Catholic brethren to accept this they would have to give up the novel idea of us now living in the 1,000 year reign of Christ, as St. Augustine thought. They are in error like the Reformed Baptists and a man named Mr. Camping who theorizes that we are living now in the Great Tribulation time.
     
  14. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    There is that school of thought that says "Christ meant to set up an earthly kingdom when He came, but the Jews wouldn't let Him, so instead He established the church as an afterthought." Really? Why then did He REFUSE to be made an earthly king in John 6:15? Obviously He refused because He wanted to be one, right? No! Jesus never intended to set up an eathly kingdom. That's why He told Pilot "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36)

    Christ received the kingdom at His ascension, as even a sloppy reading of Acts 2 and the prophecy of Daniel 7 shows.

    (Dan 7:13-14 NASB) "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. {14} "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    Sola Scriptura,

    I think and believe all that you said in your last post.

    Yes, there is a general sense the fact that the church is part of His spiritual Kingdom. This, however, does not negate the idea that after the Great Tribulation He has always had plans to rule over the entire world in His theocratic Kingdom. Most of the O.T. prophecies point to a future day from our time. One of the most clear markers to the future is in Micah 5:2. We all know that Jesus has never ruled His Kingdom from Israel, but the day will come. 'He will be Ruler in Israel . . . ' So says, Zechariah 14:17. They will worship from year to year in Jerusalem. Christ will be our King of all kings.
     
  16. jimraboin

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  17. 3AngelsMom

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    jimraboin,

    I am a SDA Church member. I keep the Sabbath, the dietary laws, and many of the feasts and festivals. I fellowship with Messianic Jews as well. I am going to a meeting this Sabbath, as a matter of fact!

    I do not agree with this school of thought that claims that we should ignore the OT statutes. They were put in place for a reason, and that reason was to govern our lives. The Law NEVER was intended to save anyone. The SACRIFICE is what was intended to save. The OT sacrifice prefigured the ULTIMATE Sacrifice, God's own Son, Jesus Christ. The ONLY thing that should be stopped is the part that has been fulfilled.

    Look at Isaiah Chapter 65-66.

    It is so enlightening it nearly blinded me when I first read it.

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
  18. jimraboin

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    Nice to meet you Kelly.

    Jim
     
  19. 3AngelsMom

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    Jim,

    That's a really good site! I was told to go there by a friend of mine, just the other day, and forgot what it was called.

    Thanks for posting it!

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     

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