Getting Evangelical,Christian values back on the table

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Jack Matthews, Nov 8, 2006.

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  1. Jack Matthews

    Jack Matthews
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    I've never trusted or depended on the Republican party to deliver anything that I might be interested in as an evangelical Christian, at least from a political perspective. They have been extremely interested in converting Christians over to support their economic policies and their foreign policy. I've read half a dozen books by Christian authors who have either downplayed, ignored or twisted Christian principles in an attempt to wrap them around the core values of Republicanism. On the other hand, considering the level of support that has been given to Republican candidates by evangelical Christians, they have been held accountable to deliver surprisingly little.

    Attempts by conservative Christian leaders to "baptize" some Republicans to make them palatable have only sent a message that they can continue to abuse this constituency with no consequences. The litany of Republican failures related to the Christian conservative constituency that has been its most loyal support is a long one.

    Some "out of the box" thinking is going to be required to be effective and change things.

    First must come the realization that evangelical, conservative Christians are in the minority. Geographically clustered mainly in the deep South and Midwest, there are places where this group can affect the vote and outcome of elections, but not a majority and not nationwide. The idea of attempting to dominate one party and drag it along to hopefully get something out of it has failed. I think Christians can be far more effective as an independent voice. This will require sharp negotiation and some re-prioritizing of particular issues in order to be effective. Political compromise is not equal to spiritual compromise. Individuals have covenants with God in Jesus Christ, not nations.

    Second, in prioritizing issues, a realistic assessment of issues will be necessary. Christians need to take a long, serious look at finding alternative ways to end abortion. The political solution, which is to overturn Roe and then get each state to pass legislation stopping abortion, is dead in the water. Christians need to look to different solutions to stopping it. If the voters in a conservative state like South Dakota aren't going to support a restrictive legal challenge to Roe, the Supreme Court will never overturn it.

    During Clinton's first two years in office, more "religious right" legislative initiatives were passed than at any other point before or since. The RFRA granted additional protection to churches from IRS invasions of privacy related to election issues. Equal access opened the door to student-led Christian organizations forming and meeting on campuses. The Democrats are diverse enough to be open to negotiation on many issues. Christian leaders need to become adept at playing politicians against each other instead of selling out to one side and limiting the scope of what can be done.

    The bottom line is to keep in mind that we do not need the permission, favor or endorsement of government to live our faith, worship, fellowship, teach or preach the Bible, spread the gospel or honor God in any other way. If the church can survive and thrive three hundred years under the Roman Empire, myriads of pogroms and persecutions over the course of history, two World Wars, communism in Russia, China and other places, it will certainly be able to endure the pendulum swings of a constantly reforming Democracy that has entered a centrist period of control by the Democratic party. The government we have is the one God put there. There are ways to stay relevant and faithful.
     
  2. Scott J

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    You've assessed this election to mean more than it does.

    We HAVE now disciplined the GOP. The only thing this election had to do with Dems was that they were the default. They didn't present or even admit to ideals or an agenda. They ran on nothing more than public dissatisfaction with Republicans. Had they presented ideas... they'd have probably lost. Americans don't agree with them.

    The gov't does not need to be about the business of promoting religious "good" or any other kind of "good". It needs to be in the business of protecting the legitimate rights of the people... to include property rights... which means gov't has no right to confiscate the wealth of one person to buy the votes of created "class" of people. Socialism is contrary to biblical principle. Jesus recognized and affirmed property rights. He recognized and affirmed an employer's right to enter into agreement with someone on wages without being beholden to someone else's sense of "fairness" and explicitly not the employee's sence of fairness.

    There is absolutely no scriptural basis for being charitable with someone else's money. NONE.

    The libertarian ideals are consistent with NT teachings and principles. No form of statism is.
     
  3. Terry_Herrington

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    Scott:

    Even though you make bold statements like:

    you simply show your inability to believe that the majority of people in this country disagree with your ideas, but they do. You are actually in the minority when it comes to many of your right-wing policies and I think things are about to change! Get used to it!
     
  4. Jim1999

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    The way to stop abortions, as a means of birth control, is to preach and establish a sense of morality in society.

    Abolishing abortion simply sends errant young girls back into the back alleys of butchers.

    The chief problem is not political, it is family. Parents have become too busy doing their own thing to rightly raise their children with moral values. Discipline must begin at home, and parental controls must return.

    Just have a look at the divorce rate among twice-born believers. It exceeds the world's rate. Something is wrong, and legislation is not the answer.

    We must stop blaming government and take some control in our own lives.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  5. genesis 12-15

    genesis 12-15
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    Jim -- do you believe that so-called "back alley" abortions will exceed the number of "legal" abortions? That number approaches 50 million in the USA alone! The unofficial number approaches 70 million! That's what is going on with "legal" abortions here. Add to that the "legal" butchering of a human life around the world. I submit that the fear of so-called "back alley" abortions (an emotionally-loaded term used only to instill disgust and fear), would drop dramatically if "legal" abortion was outlawed. However, the results of this disgusting election ensure that it will not be. We're stuck with it.
     
    #5 genesis 12-15, Nov 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2006
  6. carpro

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    I am an evangelical Christian and will remain so. That automatically puts me in the "conservative" category of the world we live in. Some would even call it the "religious right", whatever that is.

    Any person or party is welcome to embrace my core beliefs if they wish. Our Lord has commanded that we extend that invitation to all.

    Meanwhile, many Christians will support and condone sin for political gain. So be it. Just don't expect evangelical Christians to follow your lead.
     
  7. hillclimber1

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    Well reasoned and written Scott. If the Republican party cannot be saved, I'll be looking for a third party myself.
     
  8. hillclimber1

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    Sorry Jim, but that's simply not going to happen. We are headed in the opposite direction
     
  9. hillclimber1

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    Agreed, totally
     
  10. carpro

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    Doesn't have to be that way , Jim. That's what "pro choice" truly is.

    They can choose to have unprotected sex or not to have sex at all. They can either choose to have their baby or see whatever abortionist is available.

    It is their choice to make. Why should others be expected to pay the price for poor individual choices? Nobody will send "errant young girls" to a back alley abortionist. That's their choice. They send themselves.

    Let them make their choice without my participation.
     
  11. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond
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    Please provide links to the data that supports these numbers.

    Regards,
    BiR
     
  12. LeBuick

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    No, certianly not. I believe his point was a law won't stop abortions, just create more criminals for an already over burdoned system. A law will also remove the safety element from those seeking this fix to their problem. I know pro-lifers feel this option should be removed, but the truth is it can't be.

    I remember growing up with girls using coat hangers, purposely falling down stairs and literally killing themselves trying to force a miscarriage or abortion. A law won't stop the problem, just remove the sign's from the clinics.

    I agree with Jim that this problem will not and should not be fixed in the courts. It should be fixed in the home. We need family values, good morals and a society where single parent homes, homosexuality and terms like "my babies daddy" are not the accepted way of life. I'd like to see at least one parent be in the home full time but today we need two incomes to make it.

    A law is like clipping the tops off the dandelions. It may give you the faulse sense of a better yard because you have removed the problem from your view. Be not deceived, the problem is still there.

    Also, this election had nothing to do with abortion. Abortion like many other serious problems in the nation were just along for the ride.
     
  13. LeBuick

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    In this logic no one is sending them to the abortion clinics now. It's their choice so they choose to go or they could choose to keep the baby. "They send themselves".
     
  14. carpro

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    True enough.

    But I'm being forced to financially support their "choice".

    That must stop.
     
  15. Jim1999

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    Everyone wants to put the emphasis on abortion, when in fact, my emphasis was on the correct solution, a return to a sense of moral values.

    The solution is NOT in government it is within ourselves.

    Teach the moral values and abortion, as a means of birth control, is out of the question. Then one can consider the random selection of abortion, other than for medical reasons.

    Schools are allowed to teach sex education without regard for moral values. Any fool can learn to wear a condom or use birth control! Why not teach no sex in schools?

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  16. carpro

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    There is no doubt your solution is best.

    But those "moral values" seem to have gone forever missing in a large segment of the population and we can't force it on them.

    But we don't have to financially support the lack of such values. How will they ever learn to accept personal responsibility if we continue to supply financial crutches to prop up their poor choices?
     
  17. Scott J

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    Whatever you say Terry. The polls tell us that this election was about rejection of Bush's handling of Iraq and scandal. Those are the things liberals cultivated and harvested.

    There is no evidence that Americans agree with Dems on taxes, gov't growth, expansion of socialism, gay marriage, increased regulation, gun control, etc, etc, etc.

    I certainly hope the Dem leadership agrees with you though and overreach.

    BTW, my views aren't "right-wing". They are libertarian and biblical... the same viewpoint that established our nation and provided the foundation for it to become the greatest Republic in the history of the world. Frankly, I am better described a Jefferson Democrat than Republican. However the modern Democrats are nothing more nor less than Socialists... an ideal wholly contradictory to our founding ideals and the Bible.

    The dishonest part is that the Dems are using political maneuevering rather than legitimate law/election to transform the country. The communists used to say that coups didn't require a majority but rather a small number of disciplined, ruthless, socialistic idealists... that is the tactic the American Socialist Party (aka Dems) are using.
     
  18. Scott J

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    True to the extent that this is a moral issue. If it were only a moral issue then I would be adamently opposed to any law against it.

    I believe that the promiscuity that often preceeds abortion is immoral and have absolutely no interest in outlawing it.

    The difference is that abortion violates the rights of another human being. That person no matter their stage of development has a right to live that rightly supercedes any right to privacy or choice that the woman might have. She has already exercised her "right to choose" what to do with her body when she engaged in an activity with known consequences.

    Freedom by definition demands that people be responsible for the consequences else freedom is lost. Otherwise you have nothing more than subsidized, institutionalized licentiousness.

    By the same logic, laws against murder create physical risks for the murderer and therefore should be abolished.

    Once again, if someone chooses to violate a law legitimately designed to protect the life of another person then they assume the consequences.

    Legislation is not the answer to the moral problem. It is however the answer to the human rights violation that abortion constitutes.
     
  19. Scott J

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    In the US, liberals consider that a violation of their made up view of separation of church and state.

    The fact of the matter is that schools should be separate from influence... the influence of gov't. I think it was Jefferson who expressed fear that if the gov't controlled the schools they would use them to indoctrinate the people... and today we are seeing his prophecy come true.

    When the establishment clause was written, churches did virtually all of the educating of children. In their minds, that wall of separation would have prevented the gov't from effecting any influence at all over the education of children.

    My how upside down we are.
     
  20. Scott J

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    Everything you wrote here could be used to eliminate any law that prevents one person from directly violating the life or liberty of another person. Does the fact that an embezzler might become distraught over getting caught and jump from the 33rd floor mean that we need to eliminate that law? If a rapist might attempt to escape police and run into a telephone pole mean that we should legalize rape to prevent the chase?

    Your logic works if it is only a moral issue. It isn't. It is an issue where the life of an innocent human being is at stake.

    If you want to make a factual, medically scientific case for life beginning at one point or another then do so. Nothing should be assumed about a medical procedure that occurs prior to demonstrable life. But IMO based on the medical facts, it is human life at any point where it has human dna and metabolism. No one has the right to a "special right" to enable them to avoid the consequences of their free choices.
     
    #20 Scott J, Nov 9, 2006
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