Ghosts of Saddam

Discussion in 'Politics' started by kyredneck, Apr 8, 2015.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    "If you take out Saddam’s Regime, I guarantee you, that it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region." Benjamin Netanyahu, 2002
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    Isis defectors say the deposed Iraqi dictator's former officers and security agents are leading the group in Iraq and Syria

    ".... the pervasive role played by members of Iraq’s former Baathist army in an organisation more typically associated with flamboyant foreign jihadists and the gruesome videos in which they star.

    Even with the influx of thousands of foreign fighters, almost all of the leaders of the Islamic State are former Iraqi officers, including the members of its shadowy military and security committees, and the majority of its emirs and princes, according to Iraqis, Syrians and analysts who study the group.

    They have brought to the organization the military expertise and some of the agendas of the former Baathists, as well as the smuggling networks developed to avoid sanctions in the 1990s and which now facilitate the Islamic State’s illicit oil trading....

    ...“All the decision makers are Iraqi, and most of them are former Iraqi officers. The Iraqi officers are in command, and they make the tactics and the battle plans,” he said. “But the Iraqis themselves don’t fight. They put the foreign fighters on the front lines.”...

    ... “A lot of people think of the Islamic State as a terrorist group, and it’s not useful,” Hassan said. “It is a terrorist group, but it is more than that. It is a homegrown Iraqi insurgency, and it is organic to Iraq.”

    The de-Baathification law promulgated by L.* Paul Bremer, Iraq’s American ruler in 2003, has long been identified as one of the contributors to the original insurgency. At a stroke, 400,000 members of the defeated Iraqi army were barred from government employment, denied pensions — and also allowed to keep their guns.....

    ...The US military always knew that the former Baathist officers had joined other insurgent groups and were giving tactical support to the Al Qaeda in Iraq affiliate, the precursor to the Islamic State, he said. But American officials didn't anticipate that they would become not only adjuncts to al-Qaeda, but core members of the jihadist group.

    “We might have been able to come up with ways to head off the fusion, the completion of the Iraqisation process,” he said. The former officers were probably not reconcilable, “but it was the labeling of them as irrelevant that was the mistake.”...

    ...“The crisis of Isis didn't happen by chance,” Dulaimi said in an interview in Baghdad, using an acronym for the Islamic State. “It was the result of an accumulation of problems created by the Americans and the [Iraqi] government.”

    He cited the case of a close friend, a former intelligence officer in Baghdad who was fired in 2003 and struggled for many years to make a living. He now serves as the Islamic State’s wali, or leader, in the Anbar town of Hit, Dulaimi said.

    “I last saw him in 2009. He complained that he was very poor. He is an old friend, so I gave him some money,” he recalled. “He was fixable. If someone had given him a job and a salary, he wouldn't have joined the Islamic State.

    There are hundreds, thousands like him,” he added. “The people in charge of military operations in the Islamic State were the best officers in the former Iraqi army, and that is why the Islamic State beats us in intelligence and on the battlefield.”...

    ....The ex-Baathists could be lured away, if they were offered alternatives and hope for the future, he said.

    The Americans bear the biggest responsibility. When they dismantled the army what did they expect those men to do?” he asked. “They were out in the cold with nothing to do and there was only one way out for them to put food on the table.”

    When US officials demobilised the Baathist army, “they didn't de-Baathify people’s minds, they just took away their jobs,” he said.....

    ....But most of the Baathists who actually joined the Islamic State are now likely to have themselves become radicalised, either in prison or on the battlefield, he said.

    “Even if you didn't walk in with that vision you might walk out with it, after five years of hard fighting,” said Fishman, of the New America Foundation. “They have been through brutal things that are going to shape their vision in a really dramatic way.”"
     
    #1 kyredneck, Apr 8, 2015
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  2. poncho

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    "If you take out Saddam’s Regime, I guarantee you, that it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region." Benjamin Netanyahu, 2002

    It's all good. America's national security state needs enemies to fight to justify it's sprawling existence.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    Taking out Saddam was a mistake, just as taking out Muammar Gaddafi was a mistake, just as dumping on Mubarak was a mistake. That being said your continual bashing of this country and the American Military is disgusting to say the least!

    And you don't have to say it, you couldn't care less
     
  4. poncho

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    That's where you are mistaken. I am defending the country and military.

    You're the one that isn't.

    You're defending the corporate fascist state and asking the people in the military to die and be maimed defending corporate (special) interests.

    Now that is disgusting and about as un-American as it gets.

    The "country" is the land and it's people, the U.S. constitution and the rule of law not the state, not the government, not the republican party, not Israel. The military is there to protect and defend the U.S. constitution and the "country" from invaders and put down insurrections that threaten our constitutional republic. Not to defend the state, or the government, or the republican party, or Israel and it was never meant to be used as an imperial invasion force to protect and defend the interests of a small global corporate elite that have already co opted our constitutional republic and turned into the corporate fascist oligarchical state you have pledged your loyalty to.

    Your loyalty lies with the state not the country and it's about time you figured out the difference.
     
    #4 poncho, Apr 11, 2015
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  5. OldRegular

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    That is what is called Bull dung!
     
  6. kyredneck

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    GLORY HALLELUJAH! Maybe there's hope for you yet!

    (....where is that jar of corn liquor I've got stashed...think I'll go take a shot...)
     
  7. OldRegular

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    You will have to pore that sorry stuff onto a saucer and let the dregs settle sos you won't get choked first! You ain't made a decent batch since they chased you outen bloody Breathitt and that was afore you wus a gleam in yore Daddy's eye!
     
  8. poncho

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    Those who believe the corporate sponsored propaganda to be factual without checking for themselves would think such a thing.

    Unfortunately the propaganda doesn't follow reality.

    According to the evidence . . . “…economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.

    “…the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.”

    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9354310

    In simple terms, the multinational corporations drive the policies. In other words, they rule. That's the "America" you're defending.

    So here you are pledging your allegiance to the multinational corporations that use the military for their own selfish ends and you don't even know it, or care to know it.

    That's immensely sad. How many have had to die and be maimed in these needless wars and military adventures because you can't tell who or what you are being so loyal to?

    Waving a flag and repeating "patriotic" slogans and fear based neocon talking points doesn't make you a patriot. It just shows how easily fooled and manipulated you are.

    It's time to wake up and defend your country and it's people, it's constitution, the rule of law and our founding principles. That's America. You want to stick up for the military for real? Then tell the multinational corporations they have no right to use it to expand their empire.

    The military is supposed to protect and defend the constitution not the transnational corporate "special interests" that usurp it for their own selfish ends.
     
    #8 poncho, Apr 12, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2015
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Ahhh, finally an honest man but that corn stuff is bad for you....real whisky (the stuff of our ancestors) is made of barley & rye...not corn squeezing sugar....sugar sure as shit. Kill ya dead!:)
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Pennsylvania makes it out a rye....any coal miner goin down into the hole should take a snort in the morning before the pit...north or south brothers, north & south brothers, they all mined the same mountain range and slept in the same shacks.
     
  11. poncho

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    And the mine owners (corporations) machine gunned them down when they complained about the low wages and dangerous conditions.

    Let's hear it for the corporations OR . . . USA! USA! USA!
     
    #11 poncho, Apr 12, 2015
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  12. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Well somebodies got to take out the trash and mow the grass....and international bankers pay a premium for military contractors.
     
  13. poncho

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    I'm sure they do. With our blood and treasure.

    They risk nothing and keep all the profits for themselves.

    When they lose we pay. They've managed to privatize the profits and socialize the loses.

    What a sweet deal they have. C'mon OR three cheers for the multinationals! USA! USA! USA!
     
    #13 poncho, Apr 12, 2015
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  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I beg to differ....my coal mining family all died in bed.....after paying the next generations way through college. The military helped also with the GI Bill.
     
  15. poncho

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    Then you should be thanking those who bled and died to make that all possible.

    That wouldn't be the multinational corporations BTW.
     
    #15 poncho, Apr 12, 2015
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  16. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Nobody forces anyone these days to become military.
     
  17. poncho

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    That's true. It's all voluntary. After a lifetime of being lied to and manipulated by the multinational corporations into believing like OR does that they would be fighting for their "country" and defending "freedom and democracy" instead of protecting the business interests of a small global elite class.

    And not having all that many other prospects as the jobs have been off shored and the unions busted they have limited choices. Beg the banksters for a loan to go to college, work at McWallyworld or join the military or in the case of illegal immigrants join the military for the promise of citizenship.

    Of course the military doesn't pay that well so the next logical step up the corporate ladder after mustering out of the military is to become a "government contractor".

    According to the latest contractor census performed by the industry group Professional Overseas Contractors, there are currently 110,404 contractors still working in Afghanistan. Of these, 33,444 are Americans. The rest are either Afghan or from another country.

    These workers do everything from serve food to cut hair to provide security. They outnumber U.S. troops by nearly 40,000. For every one American soldier, there are 1.46 contractors.

    http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2013/05/10/US-Troops-Replaced-by-an-Outsourced-Army-in-Afghanistan

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0
     
    #17 poncho, Apr 12, 2015
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  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I do.....but somebody has to clean the fish.

    Then you need to throw out politicians who support them....and be realistic in your evaluation of just who is benefiting from American initiatives.
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Look Poncho, OR is in his 80's....way past his prime. His generation had thoughts of a better world ..... one born out of vanquishing a 'visible' enemy. Give the guy credit that he is still engaging, he is still mentally able to think clearly, and more importantly, he is trying to learn and is grasping things.....generally hidden from the masses. I consider his post as a breakthrough...to be celebrated and applauded.
     
  20. poncho

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    I know he has a lifetime of conditioning to overcome. As did I, as did everyone that can now see through all the fear and hate mongering and the red white and blue emotional manipulations crammed down our throats since we were born.

    As far as OR goes I'm probably the best friend he has here. I seem to be about the only one willing to tell the man the truth.

    Whether he likes it or not.

    Isn't that what real friends do for each other? Do you think it's mean or disrespectful to tell your friend the truth even when he doesn't want to except it as such?

    I don't. If you do then I pity your friends.
     
    #20 poncho, Apr 12, 2015
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