Gibson's "Christianity"

Jesus never said, "I am the easier ride to heaven than other religious routes. I am the best truth, amongst many others. No one comes to the Father but through Me, or somebody like Me." Yet I will admit that God does judge people on what light they had available to them, and if they had absolutely no opportunity to hear the Gospel (deep Amazon tribes or something) God is Just and True and Love. But Mel seemed to be saying that other religions led to heaven, Christians "just have an easier ride."

 

I agree. But he judges them based on his word. Which still brings up the question: What evidence of salvation is it that one stays in a church that denies the biblical teaching about salvation?? Christ, in his word, told us what evidences of salvation look like. I do not see those evidences in Gibson's life, starting with the fact that he refuses to disavow the Catholic teaching about salvation.

 

Pastor Larry,

I disagree with that the Catholic Church denies biblical teaching of salvation. This probably needs a different thread though.

I think he may misunderstand, or the media mistated his beliefs. The Catholic Church does not teach that if you are not a member of a Catholic "c"hurch, you can't be saved.

Just like James does not say "Salvation is not by faith alone"

 

Catholic Church teaches that to leave their church is a mortal sin--boom, you drop into hell. Ask any priest or nun. Mel did say: "we are all God's children...Christians just have an easier ride to heaven." He copped out because he didn't want to suffer with Christ the persecution of the world. He'll make a film about Christ's suffering, but when the chips are down, he scoots out from the bold declaration of scriptural salvation: "So whoever has God's Son has life; whoever does not have His Son does not have life." First John 4:12. He may have been afraid he'd suffer backlash by saying there is only one way to heaven, one Way ,Truth & Life: Jesus.

 

Where does the Bible say anything like that?

Andy

 

For one place, see Romans 2:13-16. I am not absolutely certain of this doctrine, wish I had a bunch of verses to toss toward you, but it follows from God repeatedly being called Just and Holy and Fair in all His ways. I will admit flat out that I need to research this some more. We can help each other learn. I think the Gospel truth is that you have to hear about Christ before you can willfully reject Him, and it is rejection of Christ, not absolute ignorance of Him, that condemns a soul to hell. Anyone have any deeper insights on this? correct me if I'm way off base here. It's a difficult topic in some ways. Thanks.

 

OK, just a few things to consider:

1. Romans 2:13 says that the doers of the law will be justified. So, who perfectly obeys the law? No one. That's why Paul says in Romans 3:20 that by the works of the law no one will be justified in His sight.

2. God is Just and Holy -- that is why God's plan of salvation must uphold the law (Romans 3:31). No one gets saved without God crediting the righteousness of Christ to his account. The Bible says that happens through saving faith (Rom. 3:21ff).

3. God condemns souls to hell because they are sinners, not because they willfully reject Him. Sure, the rejection is a sin but it is not the only sin that "counts."

Andy

 

Catholic Church teaches that to leave their church is a mortal sin--boom, you drop into hell.

You illustrated my point with precision accuracy.

"If you leave the Catholic Church with the proper understanding that the Catholic is the one true Church and you openly deny salvation through Christ, then you've committed a mortal sin. If you leave the Catholic Church without proper understanding, and believe what you are doing is what God would want you to do, the sin may only be veniel.

In order for a sin to be mortal, it must be premeditated and must have the clear understanding of what is done is wrong"

The difference can be illustrated by the following:

"I believe that the Catholic Church is a false religion, and I can no longer follow the Catholic Church. I will follow Christ in the Baptist Church" - may be venial.

"[Snipped for use of "colorful" expletives] Catholic Church. I know its the one true Church and I know I should have faith in Christ, but to heck with it all" - mortal, the person knew what they were doing is wrong.

[ February 20, 2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

Congratulations, BrianT, for an accurate quotation and sensible explanation of Mel's beliefs about the church.

I don't know Mel's spiritual state, but with all the quote-twisting the media's been doing with him lately, it behooves us to quote him accurately.

Tim

 

Would like to see the thread you are suggesting Dr B.

As to this topic I have to say that I have been stunned by the overall defence of this man and his film. The church he shows loyalty to is clearly grace denying. I fully beleive that the concerns you expressed in the OP are valid Dr Bob. He was clearly talking about his chruch. The last line ended with something like "if it comes from the chair thats the way it is." What chair is he talking about?

 

Roman Catholicism sees Protestants (or Baptists for you who don't like the Protestant term) as separated brothers and sisters. They do view Protestants as Christians. They even recognize Baptist baptism as valid.

It would be better to read the 1994 Catechism to find out what Catholics believe rather than outdated books like the Two Babylons, or anything by Jack Chick or Dave Hunt. The 1994 Catechism which is the official teaching of the RCC states concerning Protestants,
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[

Gibson I believe is a more Council of Trent Catholic however. Let's face it, he is no Protestant and holds to traditional Catholic beliefs.The film must be judged on it's own credentials and not on Gibson's personal beliefs. I have never known Protestants and Catholics to be at odds over the Crucifiction and Resurrection. Both traditions are in agreement on the Passion. Our differances come regarding Faith, Works, and Justification in Salvation. None of us have seen the movie and my understanding is that it is more ecumenical than Roman Catholic.

 

it doesn't matter what catholic councils come up with it doesn't matter if they believe the whole world is saved, the false gospel that the catholics believe will send them to hell. adding to grace is just what the catholics do.

 

The traditional Catholic statement has been that "outside the church there is no salvation." Over the years, the meaning of that has drastically changed (showing something of the nature of the fluidity of Catholic doctrine).

But regarding the agreement on teh crucifixion, there are some substantive differences. Most Catholics disavow the penal satisfaction theory of the atonement. In so doing, they have corrupted the very saving power in it. Recently in the OR forum, several catholics blasted the Protestant heresy of "penal satisfcation." In so doing, they point out a vast divergence in the way the atonement should be viewed. If there is no penal satisfaction, then there is no atonement and no salvation.

Admittedly, something like that will not be prevalent in this film. But it is a distinction that cannot be glossed over.

 

I agree with you completely Pastor Larry. My point on agreement between Catholics and Protestants on the Crucifixion is the Historical details not the Theology of the Cross. There are no differances regarding the Historical details which if I am not mistaken is what Gibson film is about.

Now when it comes to the Theology of the Cross then there becomes a big differance between Catholics and Protestants. It should be pointed out that there are differances even among Protestants regarding the Cross ( Limited Atonement, General Atonement etc...)I even know of a Southern Baptist who preaches the heretical Atonement to Satan theory. Catholics however seen to add heretical ideas like purgatory that diminishes the theology of the Cross.

I will judge the film by it's credentials alone and not Mel Gibson. Let's face it, many on this forum use KJV and NKJV Bibles. The translators of the 1611 KJV were Anglicans who would regard Baptists as schismatics from the Church of England. True, the Church of England teaches Faith Alone in Christ saves a person but King James and the 1611 translators would have viewed Baptist churches as corrupting Baptism. We however judge the KJV Bible not on the Church of England but on it's credentials. I think we should do the same with Gibson's film.

 

As I have said before I have seen the film. I am not only seen the rough-cut but I have seen a lot of the dailies. I work in the Entertainment Industry as a lighting designer. Over the summer I was interning with Merimax Films. I loved the file. When I saw it in December in NYC everyone was in tears within five minutes of the film starting.

Please I beg all of you go see the film it will change your life.

There was only one thing that I did not like in the film and that was you never see the temple vale rip in two. That is such an integral part of the crucifixion that I hope it is on film and appears in the final cut. As a Jew I cannot even begin to tell you of the importance of all people being able to access Hashem in the Holy of Holies after the vale was torn down.

Again I truly beg you all to go see the film and allow it to change you into a better Christian. It will. Hashem will.

 

"1. Mel is a pre-Vatican 2 Catholic and definitely believes, has stated unequivocally, that outside of the RCC there is no salvation."
That statement is objectively wrong.
The Catholic Church is made up out of a number of Rites, the Roman Rite being the most important one. The term RCC only covers the western Rites of Catholicism.
There is also the Eastern Catholic Church. Mel will in the very least believe that salvation is available in the eastern half of the CC as well.
http://credo.stormloader.com/ritesofc.htm

"2. The book Mel read that inspired him to write the movie was written by a 19th century nun who claimed to have experienced stigmata and had visions of what actually took place at Calvary including the pain Mary suffered as co-redemptrix. These visions were written down and became the book that inspired the movie."
Anna Catharina Emmerich.
Actually writings of another nun also with visions were apparently also involved in the film and so were the gospels.
But let's be honest here, If you want to make a film about the day leading up to the crucifixion of Jezus, the NT alone is a bit sober. Usually a committee of screenplay writers make up some details to flesh things out. In this case those writers happened to be a pair of deranged nuns.
I've read all 6 volumes of Anna Catharina Emmerich's collected works, I get to say deranged.

"3. Mel carries a relic from this woman, who is not yet a saint, in his pocket. "
He walks around with a bit of a corpse in his pocket? Eww!!

"5. There are elements in the movie which hint at Mary being co-redemptrix and at transubstantiation, elements that will be obvious to a devout Catholic and probably be completely missed by an evangelical Protestant."
That sounds extremely plausible, nonetheless I boldly claim that I am a better judge of these things than White. So we'll know the thruth about that statement after I've seen the film.

 

Amen Ben, The Abrahamic Covenant fulfilled

"...and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed".

 

Why such hatred toward our Catholic brothers? Is this what Hashem wants his people to act like? We are so blind sometimes? How long will it be before Hashem speaks to another Samuel and dams the entire Church for this unchristian thinking? We as a whole have really missed the boat. But has this is Western Christianity and we can bash anyone in the head we want as long as we say it is in Hashem's name that we do it.

 

Brother,

I have no hatred for Mel Gibson. He belongs to a denomination which denies the grace of God. This is strongly condemned in the glorious Word of HaShem in the book of Galatians.

I do not hate Mr Gibson. I have not seen one word of hatred directed toward him in this thread.

HaShem's Word is pure. His grace is all sufficient. Any group which denies His grace and requires works in simply in error. I don't hate those in error, but error must be revealed.