Gifts of the Holy Ghost

Thanks Marcia. I don't however see any dichotomy between Acts 2:16 and v19. No time limit is postulated by Peter other than the eschaton, which is clear from his use of the ref to the 'Last Days' from Joel. Therefore, the 'Last Days' commenced at Pentecost, continue today and will end at the parousia/ eschaton ie: commensurate with the Age of the Church (if your into dispensationalist-sounding titles!). This is therefore how I've always understood the use of 'telos'('perfect', 'complete', 'ended') in I Cor 13 - as a description of the eschaton rather than the completion of the Canon. To hold to the former is IMO inconsistent with Acts 2

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

WOW! Finally I agree with you.

 

I agree the Last Days started with Jesus and continue until Jesus returns. I see the Joel passage as having a ' break' in a similar way to the Is 61:1-3 passage:

Jesus quoted this up to the first part of verse 2 in the synagogue in Luk 4:18-19, but the stopped short because the rest was yet to be fulfilled. This is a prophecy where part is fulfilled at one point but the rest later. I see a similar thing with Joel 2:28-32a as quoted in Acts 2. The first part, Joel 28-29a are fulfilled at Pentecost (Acts 2:17, 18) but the latter part of Joel (in Acts 2:19-21) are not yet fulfilled.

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I agree the Last Days started with Jesus and continue until Jesus returns. I see the Joel passage as having a ' break' in a similar way to the Is 61:1-3 passage:

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Jesus quoted this up to the first part of verse 2 in the synagogue in Luk 4:18-19, but the stopped short because the rest was yet to be fulfilled. This is a prophecy where part is fulfilled at one point but the rest later. I see a similar thing with Joel 2:28-32a as quoted in Acts 2. The first part, Joel 28-29a are fulfilled at Pentecost (Acts 2:17, 18) but the latter part of Joel (in Acts 2:19-21) are not yet fulfilled.

Because the NASB says in Acts 2:26 "this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel," it sounds like it is being fulfilled there at Pentencost, not necessarily to continue indefinitely past that point. The rest of the verse about the sun turning into darkness and the moon into blood is the return of Christ, similar to the rest of the Is passage about the "day of vengeance of our God."

In other words, as there is a break in the Is 61 passage as quoted by Jesus, so I think it is legitimate to see a break in the Joel passage, with one part fulfilled and the rest yet to be fulfilled. I don't think a time has to be postulated for there to be a time 'break' in it, just as in the Isaiah passage.

A scholar might make hash of this but that's how I see it, today anway. I haven't studied dispensational stuff yet.

 

Why is it that the churches that use the sign gifts today are getting masses more people saved than those that do not?

In my mainstream Bible College we are studying the Asuza street revival that led to the formation of the AOG, Foursquare and other groups. It seems that the bulk of people that are being baptised that come from a non christian backround are being saved in these groups.

Theoretically then it would seem that the non cessationist churches are bearing fruit for the kingdom, while many other groups that oppose Spiritual Gifts are in decline. In Australia several Baptist Churches have taken on AOG pastors in order to build up flagging congregations. Likely, this will be the way of the new world for the church.

 

You just assume that more people are getting saved. Given their horrific soteriology, their "conversions" are all suspect at best.

Besides, how gullible does one have to be to assume such a position? What is your tangible proof?

 

I agree with Daniel -- we don't know that they are being saved. And the signs and wonders aren't necessarily from God, either, especially if false teaching is present.

Jesus warned in Matt 24.24 that false prophets and false Christs would arise and perform "great signs and wonders." He also said:

In other words, signs and wonders are not necessarily the mark of Christian teachers/teachings.

 

Amen! Henny-Penny is a prime example, but is just one of many.

Satan always has a conterfeit ready to slip into the mix. "Lying signs and wonders" were not new in the age of the apostles, nor are they today.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

If people confess Jesus Christ as Lord, who am I to make judgement upon them? How can I have tangible proof? Simply by looking at the results of any countrys census which has a religion question, in nearly all cases, the massive growth is to the pentecostals while others are just maintaining there numbers or are in outright decline.

 

Ben, I can see you have given this alot of thought.

Tell ya what, I will give you a little scenerio for yer help.

Dominic Gonzalez believes in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Now, you would just say he is saved because of that profession.

What you don't know is that the Jesus this guy believes in is really some guy that pulled him from a burning car right before it exploded. This particular Jesus fella "saved" him. Now, Dominic feels the need to follow this guy and basically be mentored by him, etc.

Is Dominic really saved?

 

Ben, am I saying Charismatics worship a different Jesus? Well...

 

You certainly have no problem making the judgment that they are saved.

 

Ben,

Growth in numbers of a particular church or denomination is not growht in salvation. Just because someone says religious things does not mean that they are truly saved. A pentecostal might be ... but they might not be. Drawing a crowd is a lot different than people actually being saved. The tangible proof is in their life. Someone who fails to grow in knowledge and practice gives evidence that they are not saved.

 

And this can be said of members of any denomination including Baptists. Why single out Pentecostals for special treatment here? Please do not mishear me; there is much in Pentecostal doctrine with which I disagree (subsequence and tongues as evidence of Spirit baptism principally) - but I think that to cast doubt on someone's salvation is to presume to do something which only God is qualified to perform

Marcia, I understand what you're saying with the idea of a 'break clause', but that does not produce a cesssationist conclusion from the Acts 2 passage; it simply means that some aspects are as yet unfulfilled rather than others cease. I really don't see how you can read that the pentecost signs cease from that passage; rather, applying your 'gap theory' to the passage, it would suggest that they continue until the second part of the passage is fulfilled-remember, it begins "in the Last Days" - in which we are still living.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

I don't know of any cessationaist who teaches this. Any healing whatsoever comes from God, whether through primary causation (miraculous) or secondary causation (doctors, medicine, etc.). What the cessationists deny is that the miraculous healing comes by laying on of hands or some such thing. We believe that the Bible teaches that has stopped. There are several possibilities for James 5. I believe James 5 and the anointing of oil is symbolic, because it is the prayer of faith that saves, not the anointing with oil.

Either way, we do not believe that God cannot or does not heal today. He certainly does. YOu have to remember as well that many unbelievers with no faith are also healed, showing that it is not some kind of miraculous laying on of hands that is doing the healing. Whatever the cause of healing, God is behind it.

Lea, A cessationist believes that the sign gifts (tongues, miracles, healing, revelation) have ceased with the closing of the canon. A non-cessationist believes that they have not ceased. Of the latter, there are different varieties. </font>[/QUOTE]Heartily agree the Power of the Holy Ghost ceased. This happened when Paul got to Rome.

I have found I cannot allow the Book of James to influence me today in this dispensation. James 1:1 informs that this book was written to the Pentecostal church, i.e. to the house of Israel. James 1:1 ]“James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.” Christ Jesus informs us through His heavenly Apostle Paul, that today there is no difference between His people and me a Gentile – Colossians 3:11.

Christian Faith
ituttut

Gal. 1:12 "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

 

Amen, Dr. Bob!

 

Posted by Matt Black

Hi, Matt! I wasn't really using that passage to prove the sign gifts had ceased, but I don't think the passage shows they continue either, because of Peter's statement in v. 16 stating that what they saw at Pentecost was the fulfillment of the first part of Joel. Nothing he said indicates that one should expect the sign gifts to continue.

I agree the sign gifts have ceased for the same reasons as posted by Pastor Larry and Dr. Bob.

 

When salvation by grace came the Holy Ghost was slowly withdrawn. Jesus in a parable gave Israel a specific time to accept Messiah, after His crucifixion. God did what only he knew even before the foundation of the world was set. Grace came but the Holy Spirit remained to help the fledgling Christian church to get a foothold, and to get Paul to Rome where the “grace commission” was spread to the whole world.

God still answers prayer, but then the earthly Apostles of Jesus, and the heavenly Apostle Paul had all the powers that Jesus had. These men could speak and it was done. Not so today. These Jews in the Spirit did what they willed. We today do not have this same power. They were full with the Holy Ghost. All Christians today are in the Body of Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit. Our prayers are to be “They Will Be Done”, and not – “mountain move” because I say to move it.

The kingdom was at hand, and Israel could have had it, but they didn’t want Messiah. They blew it. Thank God, else we heathen would never have been able to enter into the Temple, as we would, if we ever found God, would have been proselytes of the Jewish religion, and subject to them forever. This “time of the Gentiles” we are in will end someday, and God will be with His people.