Gifts of the Spirit

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Romans7man, Dec 24, 2011.

  1. Romans7man

    Romans7man
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    Are gifts of the Spirit for today or was it for the early Church only?

    There is no limit as to where this thread can go as long as it speaks of the gifts of the Spirit.

    Do you believe in them for today and have you ever experienced them?

    lets see where this takes us.
     
  2. convicted1

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    I think they are, but the WoF/charismatics/pentecostals have taken the ball and ran with them. Good Lord willing, I will elaborate @ a later date.
     
  3. plain_n_simple

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    For starters:
    Knowledge
    Faith
    Wisdom
    Discerning of Spirits
    Healing
    Tongues
    Interpretation of Tongues
    Prophecy
    Miracles
     
  4. Salty

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    Exactly, normally when Pentecostals speak of the Gifts, they usually only mean tongues, prophesying and healing.

    Wherefore tongues 1100 are for a sign 4592, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying 4394 [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. - I Cor 14:22 (note: # are Strongs)
     
    #4 Salty, Dec 24, 2011
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  5. glfredrick

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    I do not hold to cessation of gifts.

    But neither do I hold to the exercise of the gifts the way that many do in this age. It seems that some think that the gifts are theirs to command, instead of God's gifts given to extend His kingdom.

    I especially do not hold to the gift of tongues in the way it is most commonly practiced by those in the Pentecostal camp. The admonition of Paul to the Corinthians basically forbade the practice instead of condoned it, and nowhere in Scripture are tongues called the minimum gift that one must posses in order to confirm that they are filled with the Holy Spirit. Rather, the gift is one where people can hear the Word of God in their own language (and with that we might add "culture").

    I have seen and been the recipient of miracles. But no person prayed that miracle into existence over me. I have seen and been the recipient of healing (as has my wife) but not at the command of some individual. I have seen God act in the ways described in Scripture, but never when some individual commands that He act. Always, when God has acted or is acting, it was a matter of prayer and the acts of God always came as a surprise, most generally in ways that were not anticipated, but which ALWAYS pointed directly to Him instead of to any particular individual.

    I count on God being God when I work out my calling from Him. I can do nothing on my own! I can ask in prayer and see what He does. I can trust that He will work. But what I cannot do, nor can anyone else, is TELL God, "Do this, now!" God forbid our audacity! Let us approach His throne humbly and in great awe and fear! Then sing His praises when He choses to act out of His great and divine mercy and grace!
     
  6. freeatlast

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    I know of people who claim they know of someone who has the gift of healing, but when pressed they cannot present them for proof. I know of people who claim to speak in tongues, but when you hear them it is totally contrary to what scripture claims is tongues and they even violate the command in when to use them. I know of people who claim to have the gift of interpretation of tongues but if the words are recorded and played for 5 different people who claim to have the gift all give different interpretations. And so it is with all the showy (miraculous gifts"). So no I do not believe that anyone has any gift (showy, miraculous gift) that they can "at will" use.
    I do believe that certain gifts are still for today like; exhortation, giving, leadership, mercy, service, teaching, administrations, discernment, faith, helps, wisdom.
    I also believe that there are gifted people. Pastor/teachers. By the way not all who hold the position pastor have this gift although I believe they should to hold it.
     
  7. glfredrick

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    I have spent some time considering the issue of "tongues" based on what is revealed in Scripture. In the early cases (Acts) the Greek is "dialectos" the same word that we now use for dialects -- specific languages that people can learn and translate -- and the context was that everyone heard the gospel in their own language.

    Later uses seem to be slightly different -- at least the way that Paul castigated the Corinthians for their use -- in that the people seemed to be using some foreign tongue for their personal gain, as a prayer language, as a means to somehow praise God, etc., and the use in the congregation was one that brought disharmony instead of harmony.

    Paul did not disavow the use of tongues, and in fact noted that He had a greater gift than any in the Corinthian church. Yet, Paul did set down a series of ground rules for their use, none of which seem to be heeded much either then or now. That Paul did not forbid use indicates that there may yet be some aspect of the gift that remains in force That he severely curtailed their use means that the gift is probably not ours to use in the way that the Corinthians used it (and by implication the way many now use it). Paul rather indicated by his life and his practice that he had the ability to share the gospel with all sorts of people in all sorts of cultures and dialects -- which point back to the original use in Acts.

    So, some inferences that we might draw include that 1) tongues are probably still useful and not ceased, 2) tongues are primarily for the purpose of sharing the gospel in ways that people in every tongue, tribe, and nation (including their culture and language) can hear, and 3) that aberrant uses are not in keeping with the entirety of the Word where God tells us to do all things properly and in order, never once tells us to pray in a special prayer language, and does tell us to spread the gospel to all people, therefore, I hold that tongues may be the ability to share the gospel in "ways people hear" and in that case the gift is in full force and should be exercised in ways that do not violate Scripture.

    Healing is similar... James gives instructions for the leaders of the congregation regarding healing. We know that God grants miracles in healing. We know that ALL healing is God's healing, and even with a proficient health industry including all the marvels that Science can bring, at the end of the day true healing comes when God uses the Creation that He made to repair itself through the mechanism of the cells according to His will. We know that we fight and struggle against sin and that the curse of sin in this world will and does destroy the flesh as well as the spirit. This is most likely the cause of illness and disease, and we cannot discount the effects that sin play in our health. If we overeat and are guilty of the sin of gluttony, we will in all likelihood develop the diseases of the body that accompany that sin. Same for drinking, smoking, lack of sleep, worry, fear, sexual immorality, etc. So, we might draw similar inferences concerning healing, i.e., that healing is still a gift in existence, that God heals according to His will, and that though we might be a part of the process, we cannot "command" healing. That we cannot does not mean that the gift does not exist, but rather, simply, that God reserves that right for Himself.

    I've not found anyone who thinks that the gifts of giving, prophecy (other than the way that some use that gift in a "spectacular fashion" with the above caveats about our "command" of the gift), mercy, etc,, are lost from us. In fact, it would seem that some greatly fear the power behind the gifts -- and rightly so -- for to usurp God's authority and work to "command" the gifts is to also work against our God who makes it clear that He will not share His glory with another. But rightly fearing gifts is not the same as making them go away so that we do not have to deal with them or with those who use the gifts in ways that go astray of the Word.
     
  8. Romans7man

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    This is pretty much where I stand. I do believe in healings, but not to the scale of the Bennie Hinn type. As for the tongues it is for edifying the Church and I don't see any edifying with something NO ONE understands. I speak in the English tongue and that's it. Just because I have never seen anyone all of a sudden speak in another language other than what they normally speak, I would not say it does not still happen. The gospel has not yet been preached in every language, so it very well could happen if God so chooses to do so.
     
  9. righteousdude2

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    The Gifts are MANY...

    ...and that means the many gifts listed in the above copied post are distributed by the Holy Ghost, according to one's faith, and more importantly, according to the need of God for the use of those gifts in any one place at any one time.

    I contend that some gifts are given for a season, and other gifts given for a lifetime.

    Furthermore, I believe that the gifts of the Spirit, just like the fruits of the Spirit, are timeless and available for believers. The key word is "believers!" God will never pour out a gift upon a believer who is not ready for it, ill-equipped for it, or lacks maturity of faith and Biblical knowledge on how to use it to lift up God and not themselves.

    WOF believers are wrong because they tend to force the gifts upon all, and if the gift does not manifest itself, or reaps the expected dividends or rewards, they lay a huge guilt trip on the person and recklessly judge their brothers and sisters, often bruising the fruit and driving them from the fellowship.

    This same kind of judgment is similar to what we witness on the board (at times); however, the bruising of the fruit on this Board has been little to do with the gifts and a whole lot to do with theological differences, views, and opinions.

    Be it WOF zealots, or obnoxious board members, these folks like to believe they've been called to be judge and jury, leaving behind their calling to be a witness of the Gospel.

    I have seen the harm that both WOF zealots and religious zealots inflict on others, and it is never pretty. And these folks need to remember that the blood of their victims will be forever stained on their hands.

    I'll say this one more time; this is a timely post, and a great one at that!!! :wavey:


    And for my critics. This post comment has nothing to do with my feelings being hurt. My skin is a lot thicker than what you may give me credit for. I simply wanted to provide my input on this subject and pray that others learn to live and let live.

    WE are not products of a "cookie-cutter God where everyone must believe the exact same way in order to be accepted. To be this way, is similar to what founding leaders of cults strive for. I am all for a church that has many parts doing many functions. We can't all be a fingernail, a toe, a neck, an arm, a leg, an ankle! The body is many different parts, all working in unison to get the job done.

    For example: one church may serve the communion from one cup and one piece of bread. While another serves individual cups and individuals wafers. One church may utilize their baptismal tank; another a back yard pool, and for those by bodies of water, they use an ocean, river, lake, pond to submerge and baptize a fellow believer. Is one way more correct than another? I think not. It is all based upon intent and the faith of the body participating in the ordinance.

    The key to being a believer is in our confession of faith, and from there; God has deemed it to be that there is a multitude of believers, operating under a God, who is somewhat varied in what he calls us to do!
     
    #9 righteousdude2, Dec 24, 2011
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  10. plain_n_simple

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    For everyone, which of the 9 gifts does your church claim to possess or have been witnessed ?
     
  11. freeatlast

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    I was not aware that there was just nine gifts but to your question I have never been in any Baptist church that officially claimed to possess any spiritual gifts although I have witnessed them. I have a friend who is a pastor of a large southern Baptist church who related to me about two times when he saw the true gift of tongues work in his church. By the way he does not accept that the gift is for today as a regular happening.
     
    #11 freeatlast, Dec 25, 2011
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  12. glfredrick

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    If only those who believe that they posess the gift of healing would cruise by the hospitals of the world and set those prisoners of ill health and disease free...

    But when challenged in that fashion they always default to the faith of the indvidual, and it is never enough. Yet, I thought that the person doing the healing "in God's name" was the carrier of the faith enough to do the healing. Seems to not compute somehow, and that likely because the entire effort is a counterfeit of the work that only God can do, and through whom He choses, when He choses, where He choses, and virtually every day somewhere with someone.
     
  13. JesusFan

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    Think that we HAVE to get some foundational items out of the way while discussing this topic!

    the scriptures ALONE are revelation in full from god for today, NO additional/new revelations coming from God...

    Many in the movemnent would see modern day Apostles/prophets having "words from the lord' as valid as scripture, as they would function as spokesman for God today...

    that is heresy...

    many hold to faith healers for today, but God is the healer for today. no one has it inherit within them to do such today...

    Tongues, IF for today, JUST one of the Gifts from the HS, NOT to be seen as evidence of further grace, nor to be sought after, as ALL/EACH Gift from God to us as he wills it to be...

    NO second act of grace, as in 'baptism in HG" for now...

    Sign Gifts NOT being used to give further revelations, as was done as such in Apostolic Age...

    Think important to view/see the book of Acts as transistional, that the theology in it concerning Spirital Gofts, HS operating NOT normitive for now, and that we need to look to Romans/Corinthians for our basis for getting a proper theology for today on it!

    I hold that God can still function and use the operation of the Holy Spirit among us, but that the gifts will NOT be used by God for additional revelation, NOT part of a second act of grace, and that they basically are used to edify/encourage/build up the local assembly....

    the HS can still impart to you a direction/leading/prompting, but the sure and true guide is the Word of God, the Bible!
     
  14. glfredrick

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    I agree with everything you said except the book of Acts being "transitional." If we go down that road, we also need to decide whether the OT is for us or for someone else, etc. I say the entire Word is for all of God's people in every place and every age.

    We DO need to discern whether what we read in the Word is prescriptive or descriptive, which is part of a standard hermeneutic study (or should be). That eliminates a lot of false doctrine that comes from an incorrect literal reading on some passage. We could read about David and Bathsheba, then in the most literal way possible, go and do likewise, or we can realize that David's actions are "descriptions" of what he did, but there to be a "prescription" against our own sin of a like nature. The same is true for use of the spiritual gifts, formation of the early church, etc.

    Some have over-reacted to the gifts of the Spirit and found themselves in spiritually untenable territory; and as a result have disavowed the gifts of the Spirit as not for us today. That would be wrong doctrine, for there is no way to proof text a cessation of gifts other than an argument from silence or trying to prove a negative, or worse, setting Scripture against itself by comparing early or late revelation, counting the number of times this or that is said and basing one's response on that number (is not once the same Word of God?) and all that only gets one into trouble doctrinally as we fail to take heed to the whole council of God's Word.
     
  15. JesusFan

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    Think that we would agree in "transistional" in the sense that there were things described there NOT the norm going forward, such as people believing in jesus as messiah and not yet receiving the HS until Apostles laid hands on them, and that was done to show that even they were part of them saved by Gospel message, not to the jews only!

    Also, think that the sign gifts did function as being revelatory words from god to local church, as bible not fully revealed unto us at that time yet, so there were "inspired" prophetic words from God, but NONE can be such today, as canon is completed and closed!

    Think basic problem is that MUCH of modern charasmatic theology is based upon signs/wonders/experiences, and from false teachers/teachings from alleged "modern day Apostles/prophets"...
     
    #15 JesusFan, Dec 26, 2011
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  16. JesusFan

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    Well...

    the Holy Spirt bestows EACH of the Spiritual gifts as HE wills them to be possessed by us...

    You have to first define what you would mean under each gift, what is the meaning that you have vested into them?

    As traditionally, charasmatics have them mean much different than what either baptists or Bible meant by those Gifts for meaning!
     
  17. Baptist Believer

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    I always point those who believe it is always God's will to heal everyone to John 5, where we see Jesus walking through a group of people gathered around the Pool at the Sheep Gate, all presumably wanting to be healed. Jesus only healed one person.

    I think we can draw from John 5 that, in opposition to those who believe EVERYONE is supposed to be healed, that God's will is supreme in these matters. There is often a holy purpose in sickness and suffering that we can't fully understand this side of eternity.

    On the other hand, we can also point out to those who demand that those who have the gift of healing must, to prove that the gift is real and active, must necessarily be used to heal EVERYONE, or the gift is not valid.
     
  18. freeatlast

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    I be satisfied to see one person healed by someone who claims this gift is still around today.
     
  19. Baptist Believer

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    I believe there are many more gifts than nine - I think these are essentially "sign gifts" that express the power and activity of the Kingdom of God on earth and occasionally complement the teaching of and obedience to the scripture in certain circumstances.

    Here's my experience with the gifts you listed:

    [Word of] Knowledge - Frequently expressed through me.

    Faith - Occasionally expressed through me.

    [Word of] Wisdom - Frequently expressed through me.

    Discerning of Spirits - Frequently expressed through me.

    Healing - Only once expressed through me and another person together in 1987. I do not think I have seen many legitimate expressions of this gift.

    Tongues - Has not been expressed through me. Have seen one or two incidents that I believe were legitimate, but not in a church setting. Most expressions I have seen I do not believe were legitimate.

    Interpretation of Tongues - Has not been expressed through me. Have seen one or two incidents that I believe were legitimate, but not in a church setting. Most expressions I have seen I do not believe were legitimate.

    Prophecy - Has not been expressed through me in the sense that I expressed a future event the Lord was going to do. I do not think I have seen a legitimate expression of this gift.

    Miracles - Has not been expressed through me unless you count the dismissal of demonic spirits as a miracle... I do not. I do not think I have seen a legitimate expression of this gift.
     
  20. JesusFan

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    In this issue of healings for today...

    Have to understand most charasmatics link that to "By his stripes we were healed', in that healing was provoded for in the atonement by God, and they say that we can expect a 'fullness" of both spiritual/physicl health, God provided, we need to excercise real faith to receive it!

    They also link it with "gifts of healings", as some today actually have the same power that jesus/peter/paul had to heal the sick...

    Also link to 3 John 2, where Apostle prayer is that in all things, Gaius would be blessed! Financially and health wise!

    They have a bad interpretation on those passages, as they fit their theology into the texts, and read into them their doctrines, NOT using the scriptures to instead give them their doctrines!
     

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