Gifts/Tongues – Once Good? Now Evil?

Hello!
Why thank you for posting the link to the Freewill Baptist...I have not heard about that one. Thanks so very much.
Also, I looked at your profile (as I am seeing that I must do this because it helps to know where a person is coming from)...what is a Seventh Day Baptist? What is the difference that sets your church title apart from others?
Thanks. Thanks in advance for your help to understand better the Baptist church.

 

John McAurther has a tape series out on tongues it's very good.if you can find it, it has been out for awhile.

 

To an extent this is true. However, when a man sets out to write a dictionary from a theological point of view, there is no way he can divorce his interpretations from his pre-conceived theological views. Therefore, he is far more likely to err in his conclusions than a man who sets out to write a dictionary from a strictly linguistic perspective.

I do not possess nor have access to any of these books.

There is no background of the Corinthian church other than what is written in the Scriptures.

I don't have any reason to engage in such foolishness. I can read the Bible and see what it says about "tongues." The term "tongues" used in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, obviously means a language. Even as in English the word "tongue" can simply mean language.

I would like to hear what you have to say about the "speaks into the air" point that I made from the Bible itself.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Here is a question for those who think "tongues" is still for today:

What purpose does it serve? Why do we need tongues?

 

To an extent this is true. However, when a man sets out to write a dictionary from a theological point of view, there is no way he can divorce his interpretations from his pre-conceived theological views. Therefore, he is far more likely to err in his conclusions than a man who sets out to write a dictionary from a strictly linguistic perspective.

I do not possess nor have access to any of these books.

There is no background of the Corinthian church other than what is written in the Scriptures.

I don't have any reason to engage in such foolishness. I can read the Bible and see what it says about "tongues." The term "tongues" used in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, obviously means a language. Even as in English the word "tongue" can simply mean language.

I would like to hear what you have to say about the "speaks into the air" point that I made from the Bible itself.

Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]In response to you: BAGD is not a theological dictionary but a lexicon. To assume that tongue is used only one way is like assuming that it is used only one way in English as well. Any dictionary will give several meanings of a word usage. Two examples of tongue would be the organ in our mouth and language. The third is about what we are debating and that is ecstatic utterance.

Nobody can ever write form a strictly linguistic perspective. Any translation requires interpretation to translate from one language to another. I think I understand Greek reasonable well and that does not always give adequate answers. Language is the key to unlock the culture but it does not solve every problem. If you try to translate como estas and como esta they translate exactly the same in English but in Spanish have very different usages. To understand the actual meaning of those words you would need to know the background or cultural usage of those questions in context.

There are other documents about the church in Corinth other than just the Bible. That is how they know the history behind the scriptures. To understand the full impact of scripture one must understand the history behind the writings. When one does exegesis they must understand the historical background and all that surrounds that. Words only have meaning in a given context. So too the scriptures only can be correctly interpreted in light of its historical context.

For example if someone in your congregation handed you a note that said, “I love you” you would need to know more about the writer and why it was written. You would want to know who it was. The context would determine how you interpreted that note.

You wrote, “I would like to hear what you have to say about the "speaks into the air" point that I made from the Bible itself.”

My take on that is any kind of speech that is not understood is fruitless to the hearer unless the speech is interpreted in such a way that he can understand the message.

I wrote, “I cannot find one lexicon that will talk about tongues being only a foreign language only. Can you?” I am surprised that you would write, “I don't have any reason to engage in such foolishness.” That is to say that you are more knowledgable and better studied than those who write these tools to help us. I have met some and I find them to be very knowledgeable men. One of them was one of my professor. He studied extrabiblical documents around the time of the NT and thereafter. BAGD is one of the most respected lexicons among those who study Greek. Plus I have several other lexicons written by Christians that are of the same standard. One I have deals with how the word was used in the papyrii. Another among the philosophers. Another among the Early Church Fathers. Another among the NT writers and other extrabiblical literature of the time. You did admit that you were not familiar with them. So I assume that you have not studied the languages. The tools I mentioned give the references for what they write.

I believe that one can best interpret if given all the facts. Even sometimes it is still hard to do it then. It is my aim to try and get the most reliable and most information I can to make a good decision. I am on this journey that will last me the rest of my life. This same debate has lasted since the NT was written.

I do not see any reasons for tongues in a worship service. But because of what I have learned over the years and what I have read I cannot dogmatically say that tongues has ceased. From looking at the language and what other Greek scholars who are even teaching Greek at some seminaries where its cessation is taught I have come to the conclusion that I do not believe I can by scripture alone say tongues has ceased. The Greek scholars have talked with tell me that they believe tongues is not necessary for worship but they cannot say with certainty by scripture alone that it has ceased. But consistently I have heard them say that Paul was trying to put a control on something that was out of hand. And from that standpoint I believe it will cease because it is not necessary. But can I rule it our totally and never being from God? No. I have seen too many things over the years that I thought I had God all figured out and got some big surprises.

I have a close friend who was in country before communism and after it fell. Some of the things he has said he has asked me not to repeat here in the US. He told the reason was because Americans would not understand what it was like there. They would think him to be different than he should. He is a fundamentalist through and through. But some of the things he saw God do were incredible. He did tell me that upon his return almost 30 years later that the Christians in the churches in America are very cold and unfriendly by comparison. He saw people killed and persecuted where he lived. He was there when it was illegal to meet more than four unrelated people in a home along with informants coming to visit during the Bible studies. But today he can walk into a school and they will shut down the school and hold an assembly just so he can preach the gospel. What a difference!!! These are public secular schools.

Just look at the books of the prophets and what some of those prophets experienced with God. How would we deal with some prophets of Baal? Do we have that kind of confidence and faith in God?

Anyway that’s where I stand. That is where I am in my journey.

 

In 1 Cor. 13; 1-3 MacArthur writes in his commentary on 1 Cor about verse one, ("If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.") "Paul's basic point in 13:1, however is to convey the idea of being able to speak al sorts of languages with great fluency and eloquence, far above the greatest linguist or orator."

I can't imagine what MacArthur means by what he wrote.

Anyone have an answer to what he wrote. I wonder how what MacArthur wrote would compare to someone who claimed to speak in tongues and that is Paul. Does anyone know how many languages Paul knew.?. To say that tongues is language or even a foreign language and to say language has ceased does not seem to make much sense. It seems to me that languages have not ceased. I know many people who speak a number of foreign languages.

I only know of one person who had not had to study a language to identify it. That was W.F. Albright. But he had studied others first.

.

 

Elk,

Gidday, I will drop you a PM to keep the subject from going off track.

 

Churchboy-------I totaly agree with you. For about 5 years I was totaly immersed in the pent. char. movement.I read every book I could put my hands on. I was licensed by the AG.This issue caused me to leave a very sound biblical church.I became very disalutioned. My Baptist church had a very sound,sure biblical foundation.I suddenly found myself in a movement where anything goes.Where doctrine was a hindrance to the "move" of the Spirit.I saw things in that movement that should have been dealt with as heresy.False prophets overlooked as just being human. The bible gives us a "sure word of prophecy".Stand on that. Not on the emotions of a movement or person.Tongues,"Signs and wonders"(to their def.)has never been consistant through church history.It has only been in Radical movements.The tongues I witnessed was not, I believe, the biblical tongues. Not to say that God in His Sovereignty could not use biblical tongues in certain instances. Did our church fathers ,that gave us the biblical foundations we read in their Systematic Theologies,ever speak in tongues.These were the greatest minds in church history.I would never go back to that "house built on the sand" movement. Don't even be tempted by a movement that has caused devision,insecurity and grabs your tongue,wags it, and tells you to go da da da .Give me a break. Go to the bible and men and women that had a part in building up the body of Christ. Thats all for now. 1peter 1;5

 

Ron,

I understand where you are comming from, I was a Lay Minister in a Pentecostal church before I joined the Seventh Day Baptist Church. The reason that I left this particular Pentecostal Church was that I felt they had gotten into the Prosperity Gospel and the Rodney Howard Browne stuff in a way that was not in line with scripture.

Yet one group can never represent all Pentecostals. Pentecostal Churches are seeing massive revival in many countries. Around the corner from me a Baptist Church recently closed down while three Pentecostal Groups have moved into the area. I have been along to one of them and was amazed at the number of people there that were relativley new christians. Which leads me to believe that God is certainley working through a number of the Pentecostal fellowships. It is my desire that many Evangelical and Mainstream churches would catch hold of their passion to get people saved and see a revival happen.

 

Ron,

We seem to have had similar experiences. My church is only nominally charismatic. It is currently moving away from being chismatic. A few do speak in tongues but most (about 90%) do not. When I began to ask some people about my questions of tongues the typical response was that I was being too intellectual and "not allowing" the Holy Spirit to bless me. I was "quenching" the Holy Spirit. I thought this was just silly. The Holy Spirit is sovereign so how can I quench Him? My other issue is why do people only want to receive the sign or power gifts; i.e. speaking in tongues, prophetic gift, word of knowlwedge, healing, etc? Why do people not ask for the other spiritual gifts?

One friend in particular was really heavy into Word of Faith, Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard Browne, Pensacola Revial, and stuff like that. I would share with her what I have learned through reading Scripture and other research but she just wouldn't listen. Increasingly she would search for more and more "spirit-filled" experiences. She eventually left our church.

 

Do I get an answer?

 

Do I get an answer? </font>[/QUOTE]There are still many people groups in the world that don't have a written language. So, they don't have a bible. God can use "tongues" to reach someone from any one of these groups. Who are we to say He can't because it doesn't fit our theological beliefs?

 

So, they are for missionary evangelistic purposes? Then why are there "churches" who are practices this mindless foolishness? What, are there multiple languages in every one of these "charismaniac" churches?

 

Daniel David-
Just wondering if you read my post, & if so what do you think of that specific instance? I'm not saying I believe in the tongues movement of today, they are not what the Bible defines as "tongues", but do you think that God could use them for specific areas such as w/this little girl who could not even be understood by her parents, nevertheless the Holy Spirit was working in her heart and she desired to be saved?
In Christ,
Peggy
Is.6:8

 

Different kinds of Tounges.

1Cor 13:1 "Though I speak with the tounges of men AND of Angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal".

Are the tounges of Angels intelligable to men?

 

Actually, I do believe that tongues could exist in the way that the other sign gifts do, as a direct act of God.

In other words, we don't have "healers" around like in the N.T. We don't have "tongue" speakers either. However, God can directly heal or cause a person to hear a previously unknown language. I don't hate tongues. I hate the pathetic, mindless misuse of them by the "full-gospel", pentecostal, etc., groups.

 

Qwerty, Excellent points.

 

Well said.

 

I would accept as a "true" example of speaking in tongues if it meets the following criteria set forth by Scripture:

1) A known human language is spoken.
2) An unbeliever is present.
3) The person speaking in tongues is glorifying the mighty words of God. This means that the speaker is directing his/her words toward God and not man.
4) An interpreter is present.

Again, in my five years as a Christian I have never heard anyone speak a known human language. But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened or it can't happen. I just haven't witnessed it myself.