Gifts/Tongues – Once Good? Now Evil?

Gee, I think we've been here before...

The gift of tongues IS a true spiritual gift from God. We know this because it is mentioned several times in the Bible. But what we have going on today is nothing like that described in the Scriptures.

The use of tongues in the Bible stem from the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was given. The disciples came from the upper room speaking the various languages of those who were in Jerusalem. There was no need for an interpreter, because they were speaking to other people in an intelligable language (not gibberish).

As you look through Acts, each instance of tongues is found in the presence of Gentiles, those who would speak a different language that those who were sharing the gospel. And not everyone who was saved spoke in these tongues (look at the day of Pentecost, for a start).

Fast-forward into Paul's epistles. He mentions tongues several times, mainly in 1 Corinthians. Here we find Paul giving strict guidelines about the use and practice of tongues. Why?

Corinth was a pagan city in every sense of the word. Every religion could be found there, as well as every vice. The use of ecstatic utterances by the various cults was well known and widely practiced. Paul was urging these measures because of the wholesale falsification of this gift of the Spirit. The Corinthians were very familiar with these ecstatic gibberings, and seeing that the Spirit had given some the ability to speak other languages, they decided to become "super-spiritual" themselves.

This is why Paul had to call them out on it. Paul's mention of an interpreter basic says that if someone is not there who speaks the language you are supposedly using, then shut up.

The gift of tongues is described as the least of the gifts, but so many put so much stock in them. I am afraid that what most call tongues today are but a re-emergance of the Corinthian ecstasy.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Trotter,

Well said.

 

If I woke up one morning and was able to speak Mandarin Chinese (presently I know not one word), I would take it as a collossal clue as to what God wants me to do.

Can anybody guess what that might be?

BTW, I am NOT charismatic (in the theological sense). OK, so I'm vain.

HankD

 

Tongues serve 3 purposes

- Revelation - ie intrepretation of the current and final covenant - and the giving of God's will concerning something

- Deeper intimacy during prayer

- speaking of an unknown language in order to further or defend the gospel as a witness


The first 2 reasons are so small so almost entirely fulfilled by other means - that they are rarely to be used.

Reason 1 still exists - but is limited indeed (and is only in public with an intrepreter)

Reason 2 - May or may not exist anymore, and if it does is solely in private - prayer is not what is laid upon my heart - Im a Bible thumperish kinda guy - doctrine doctrine doctrine

Reason 3 - is most likely the main reason tongues still exists - my personal experience in this area leads me to believe that this part of tongues is still active.

 

If I woke up one morning and was able to speak Mandarin Chinese (presently I know not one word), I would take it as a collossal clue as to what God wants me to do.

Can anybody guess what that might be?

BTW, I am NOT charismatic (in the theological sense). OK, so I'm vain.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]Good point, HankD.

Roscoe

 

You cannot find a verse in the Bible that says that tongues are the "least" of the gifts. There are no gifts that is least or greater thatn another. The only thing that is close is when Paul said that greater is he who prophesies thatn he who speaks in tongues and then adds " unless he interprets" which means that tongues with interpretation are equal to prophecy.
Some say that tongues are the least because they are mentioned last in 1Cor. 12. There are two problems with that interpretation:
1. If we determine that tongues are least because mentioned last we would have to say these things abide faith, hope and love and the least of these is love since it is mentioned last.
2. The other problem is that tongues are not last in the list. Interpretation is last and to follow the logic of listing gifts in order of importance we wuould have to say that interpretation is less important thatn tongues. I don't think this is what Paul was saying.

 

atestring, here's the problem with your example:

Except that love is specifically mentioned in scripture as being the greatest of the three (1 corinthians 13:13). We have no such assurance of tongues; in fact, we have Paul specifically admonishing the Corinthians that they shouldn't be placing such an emphasis on tongues (1 Corinthians 14), and rather to prophesy (1 Corinthians 14:5), with the exception you mentioned about interpreting having a specific reason mentioned: the edification of the church (also 1 Corinthians 14:5).

 

Except that love is specifically mentioned in scripture as being the greatest of the three (1 corinthians 13:13). We have no such assurance of tongues; in fact, we have Paul specifically admonishing the Corinthians that they shouldn't be placing such an emphasis on tongues (1 Corinthians 14), and rather to prophesy (1 Corinthians 14:5), with the exception you mentioned about interpreting having a specific reason mentioned: the edification of the church (also 1 Corinthians 14:5). </font>[/QUOTE]So do you prophecy in Church?

 

OK, I have some problems with these...

1. Revelation? So, the Bible is not complete? Sounds a lot like Mormonism to me.

2. Deeper intimacy? How can I become more intimate with someone when I cannot understand what I am saying to the person? And how do you know that these "tongues" are from God? I enjoy intimacy with my wife through constant contact and meaningful conversation (of which is intelligable to BOTH parties). Sorry, that doesn't hold water.

3. Unless the Lord gifts you with the language of the one to whom you are trying to defend the gospel to (or witnessing to), all you are going to do is prove that you are an idiot by shouting gibberish at them (no matter how "spiritual" you might feel at the moment).


Don't get me wrong. I do truly believe in the gift of tongues. But I do not believe in what is being practiced in the name of "tongues". The gift of the Spirit is an actual language, one that someone in the speaker's immediate vicinity can understand. It is not being "spiritual" and babbling about while somebody "interprets" by spouting out whatever he feels like.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Atestring,

Sorry. "Least" is my personal interpretation of the significance of tongues.

which means that tongues with interpretation are equal to prophecy. But it seems I am not the only one posting my own brand of interpretation.

So do you prophecy in Church? The meaning and use of "prophecy" is not the same as it was before the completion of the New Testament. To prophecy means to "tell forth". So, I guess you could say that all preachers engage in prophecy. But if you are implying do you speak forth new Scripture, I think you are in the wrong forum.

Incidentally, just how does several people shouting nonsense into the air edify the church? I've always wondered about that.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Except that love is specifically mentioned in scripture as being the greatest of the three (1 corinthians 13:13). We have no such assurance of tongues; in fact, we have Paul specifically admonishing the Corinthians that they shouldn't be placing such an emphasis on tongues (1 Corinthians 14), and rather to prophesy (1 Corinthians 14:5), with the exception you mentioned about interpreting having a specific reason mentioned: the edification of the church (also 1 Corinthians 14:5). </font>[/QUOTE]So do you prophecy in Church? </font>[/QUOTE]When I'm asked to teach Sunday School, or preach the occasional sermon, yes, I do.

But the importance, especially according to 1 Corinthians 14, is on the edification of the church. We should never, ever focus on anything that edifies only ourselves.

 

Amen, Don, amen.

 

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Are there greater gifts, and is there a least gift?
Note that in verse 28 Paul lists all the gifts in order of importance: He uses the words: "first, secondarily, thirdly, after that, then..." These gifts are all listed in order of importance starting with the most important (Apostles), second (prophets), and going down the least important of all the gifts (tongues).

In verse 31, Paul says to covet or desire the best gifts, which apart from the Apostles, were that of being a teacher or that of prophecy. However the carnal Corinthians were coveting the showy gift of tongues, which in reality was the least of all the gifts. He explains why in chapter 14. It was a gift that had no understanding unless used with an interpreter.
Is it not ironic that people today, like the Corinthians of long ago, still covet the least of all the gifts, even if it is the devil's imitation of the real thing.
DHK

 

Except that love is specifically mentioned in scripture as being the greatest of the three (1 corinthians 13:13). We have no such assurance of tongues; in fact, we have Paul specifically admonishing the Corinthians that they shouldn't be placing such an emphasis on tongues (1 Corinthians 14), and rather to prophesy (1 Corinthians 14:5), with the exception you mentioned about interpreting having a specific reason mentioned: the edification of the church (also 1 Corinthians 14:5). </font>[/QUOTE]So do you prophecy in Church? </font>[/QUOTE]When I'm asked to teach Sunday School, or preach the occasional sermon, yes, I do.

But the importance, especially according to 1 Corinthians 14, is on the edification of the church. We should never, ever focus on anything that edifies only ourselves. </font>[/QUOTE]Wait a minute, you mean you are a prophet? I thought the prophets died off along time ago?

 

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Are there greater gifts, and is there a least gift?
Note that in verse 28 Paul lists all the gifts in order of importance: He uses the words: "first, secondarily, thirdly, after that, then..." These gifts are all listed in order of importance starting with the most important (Apostles), second (prophets), and going down the least important of all the gifts (tongues).

In verse 31, Paul says to covet or desire the best gifts, which apart from the Apostles, were that of being a teacher or that of prophecy. However the carnal Corinthians were coveting the showy gift of tongues, which in reality was the least of all the gifts. He explains why in chapter 14. It was a gift that had no understanding unless used with an interpreter.
Is it not ironic that people today, like the Corinthians of long ago, still covet the least of all the gifts, even if it is the devil's imitation of the real thing.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]The Bible does not refer to tongues as the least of all the gifts. If you go by the order listed then I Corinthians 13 list it first.

 

The nation of Israel starts with signs:

(1) Ex 3:2 - a burning bush that is not consumed.

(2) Ex 4:3 - a rod becoming a serpent.

(3) Ex 4:6ff - a healing of leprosy

(4) Ex 4:8 - And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign..."

(5) Signs accompanied Moses' ministry as he led the children of Israel out of Egypt and throughout their wilderness wanderings - Deu 6:22 & Ps 78:43 & Jer 32:21.

(6) When the nation of Israel strayed from following God, the signs ceased and they cried out "We see not our signs..." -Psalm 74:9.

(7) Mt 10:6ff - The earthly ministry of the Jewish Apostles began with signs - "...go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel...Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead..."

(8) Matt 12:38 - The Pharisees expected the Messiah to do signs - "Master, we would see a sign from thee...an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas..."

(9) John 4:48 - Jesus said - "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe."

(10) Mark 16:17 - "And these signs shall follow them that believe..."

(11) I Cor 1:22 - "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom..."


(12) I Cor 14:22 - "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not..."

Scripture with scripture - Signs are for Jews who do not believe something God wants them to believe.

a. There are only 3 instances in scripture where someone actually spoke in tongues - Acts 2, 10 & 19.

b. In all 3 instances, there were Jews present who did not believe something God wanted them to believe.

c. In all 3 instances, the sign gift of tongues was to convince these Jews.

d. There are no scriptural instances of angels speaking in tongues or of men speaking with the tongues of angels.

e. There are no scriptural instances of anyone praying in an unknown tongue.

f. The most carnal church in the New Testament received a letter from Paul rebuking them for their carnality and setting down scriptural guidelines for speaking in tongues.

g. God can bestow any spiritual gift anytime He wants to, outside of "dispensational" boundaries.
If He does this, it is not the carnival so frequently observed on TV or at Pentacostal & Charismatic Tent Meetings.

h. The modern tongues movement is a movement of unclean spirits who counterfeit the gifts to lead astray silly women and men who walk in the flesh and not after the Spirit. (I Cor 11:13-15)

i. The modern tongues movement is a fleshpot, carnal, anti-scriptural sideshow. It has no relationship to the tongues practiced in Acts 2, 10 & 19.

And it adamantly refuses to obey the scriptural guidelines given by inspiration to the Apostle Paul, who is to be our example - I Cor 4:16 & 11:1 & Phil 3:17.

Paul said "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant." - I Cor 12:1

CONCLUSION:

The next period of time in which the world will see "signs, wonders and miracles" is the Tribulation.

Mt 24:3ff, 11, 24

II Thess 2:9-11

Rev 13:3 - healing of the wounded beast

 

1Cor.13 was written after chapter 12. Let's be reasonable here. Neither does it give a list of all the gifts of the Spirit. But 1Cor.12:28 does give one of the lists of the gifts of the Spirit, and it is a very important one.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

It is important because it sets the gifts in order of importance. Note the adverbs used here: "first," "secondarily," "thirdly," "after that," "then." There is an obvious progression from the most important to the least important of all the gifts, which is tongues--that gift which is listed at the bottom of the list.
Then Paul says in verse 31 to desire earnestly the best gifts (which would not include tongues), but rahter by teachers and prophets. Then he goes on to say "I show you a more excellent way," and that is what is explained in chapter 13, the way of love. It has nothing to do with tongues, except to point out in verses 8-13 that they have ceased.
DHK