Give Me liberty, Or Give Me Justice.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ForumChaplain, Aug 31, 2002.

  1. ForumChaplain

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    Give Me Liberty, or Give Me Justice
    Give me freewill, or show me how God is just in creating one for heaven, and another for hell.

    Calvinist dogma states that before the foundations of the world were laid, God chose an elect people for himself.

    I say that there is no such thing as individual election, I say that salvation is a conditional covenant: I say that before the foundations were laid, God chose the criteria (faith) through which one could become one of the elect. For we are saved by Grace, through faith.

    Is logically possible for God one to salvation; and to reject another without criteria.

    Criteria For Salvation
    Rom 10:9-14
    9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    KJV

    [ August 31, 2002, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  2. russell55

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    Of course we are saved by grace through faith. We are justified on condition of faith.

    But can you find any scriptural support for this statement?
    Where does it give any criteria (or conditions) for becoming elect?
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    While you say this, can you show us a place where Scripture says this? I will make the same challenge to you that I made to Ray (who constantly said this): Show the place where Scripture says election is a result of belief. Ray never followed through (for obvious reasons).

    The problem with this approach that you have taken is that there is a bunch of "I say" without adequate representation of what Scripture says. In 2 Thess 2:13, we are told the connection between faith and election: But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

    Clearly, in biblical presentation, election precedes faith. We are saved through faith. Most here do not deny that.

    God does choose without any criteria. To do less would be a respector of persons and we are told in Scripture that God is no respector of persons. Therefore, he chooses without any criteria. All who go to hell, do so because of their own sin.
     
  4. Jeff Weaver

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    As for me, I am hoping for mercy.
     
  5. ForumChaplain

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    While you say this, can you show us a place where Scripture says this? I will make the same challenge to you that I made to Ray (who constantly said this): Show the place where Scripture says election is a result of belief. Ray never followed through (for obvious reasons).

    The problem with this approach that you have taken is that there is a bunch of "I say" without adequate representation of what Scripture says. In 2 Thess 2:13, we are told the connection between faith and election: But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

    Clearly, in biblical presentation, election precedes faith. We are saved through faith. Most here do not deny that.
    God does choose without any criteria. To do less would be a respecter of persons and we are told in Scripture that God is no respecter of persons. Therefore, he chooses without any criteria. All who go to hell, do so because of their own sin.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Pastor Larry:
    Regeneration is part of the salvific process, faith, the bible says, cometh by hearing; not by regeneration. Absolutely nothing, save the drawing power of the Holy Spirit happens without faith. For we are saved by grace, through faith. All must come through faith. Show me one passage that says that faith cometh through regeneration.

    What you want to believe is that man is so depraved and dead to God that the Holy Spirit (power of god) is unable to reach him.

    You also state that God chooses absent criteria, just one passage to set this precedent is all I need to see.

    Did God choose the wrong word with which to reveal his actions to us? To choose, always means to select between. Between what? Criteria.... Without scriptural evidence, we cannot simply change the definition and meanings of words to fit our own doctrine.

    Without choice we have the luck of the draw. Without choice we have the random pointing of ones finger. If god choose, he choose based on something that he saw in one person to a greater degree than he saw in another person that he did not chose.

    You know that this casts God as a respecter of persons, so you change the definition of the word, "choice" to fit some criteria that is only known to God of which there is no scriptural evidence.

    You say that, “All who go to hell, do so because of their own sin”. How is this possible if I am condemned in Adam before I was even born????

    The word of God was given to us to solve the mystery that is our God, not to create them. If your doctrine does not reconcile completely with the word of God, stay your conclusions and just keep studying.

    You think that freewill challenges the sovereignty of God. It does not. Neither does the freewill that God has allowed man have the power to challenge god's ability to bring to fruition his plan for his creation. If I ask you to go to the store and bring me either an apple or an orange: The choice is yours, apple or orange. How in this is my sovereignty challenged.

    You did exactly what I told you to do within the guidelines that were set.

    Deut 30:19
    19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
    KJV

    Josh 24:15
    15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
    KJV

    1 Kings 18:21
    21And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

    Evidence of Volition in salvation…….
     
  6. KenH

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    (John 1:12-13 NKJV) But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: {13} who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    "who were born" is past tense - it preceded believing in His name.

    (Phil 1:29 NKJV) For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

    Faith is granted, it is a gift. It is the result of regeneration. Unless, of course, you believe that God gives the gift of faith to someone before he born from above.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    First, quote only the part that you are referring to if you don't mind. It will save space and clutter.

    No, I believe the Holy Spirit is able to reach him. You believe the Holy Spirit is unable to do it with a sinner's permission. That is a key difference. I do not believe that salvation comes without faith. Faith is clearly necessary but that faith is the gift of God. Personally, I do not believe that regeneration precedes faith. However, I believe that the effectual call of the Spirit is a unilateral, sovereign, efficacious work of the Spirit by which he draws and enables faith so that the sinner will certainly respond. I make a techinical distinction on the basis of several passages that most reformed soteriologists do not make.

    John 1:13, Rom 9:16, 18, 21, 23; Eph 1:4-11 and many more I could list but since you need only one, this should suffice.

    Choose means to elect or select. Why does that require criteria? God's criteria is his own good pleasure (Eph 1:11).

    Totally false and without basis in Scripture. God saw the same thing in everyone--sin and death. You would hold this position you have cited saying that God chose those who first chose him. That is criteria and I reject it on the basis of Scripture. As I demonstrated multiple times, it is your belief that makes God a respector of persons because in your system, he respects those who choose him and does not respect those who, for whatever reason (time in history, location, etc), do not choose him.

    Because you sin because you are a sinner. Adam was your (and my) representative, just as Christ is your and my representative. Rom 5 teaches that we get rightesouness in the same way we got sin--by imputation.

    Which I did years ago and came to the conclusion I did. The position I used to hold could not deal with the text.

    What if God's plan involves you making a choice that you, in your "free will" (misdefined), choose not to make? How can God work his plan for his creation if your choice might contradict his will?

    No one here argues that man does not have volition in salvation. The bible teaches that unless God unilaterally and efficaciously acts, man's free choice will always be to reject God (Rom 3, 8, Eph 2, John 1, etc.).

    [ September 01, 2002, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  8. ForumChaplain

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    (John 1:12-13 NKJV) But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: {13} who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    "who were born" is past tense - it preceded believing in His name.

    (Phil 1:29 NKJV) For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

    Faith is granted, it is a gift. It is the result of regeneration. Unless, of course, you believe that God gives the gift of faith to someone before he born from above.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
    </font>[/QUOTE]Inherent in the word "Faith", is the phrase, "I believe". It is by the power of God, but nevertheless, "I do this", I believe.

    If by the power that God gives me, I believe unto faith; God will accept me into his kingdom. If "I" reject the power of God unto salvation, I go to hell.

    Now I am accountable for my actions. No reason to boast here; because if Christ had never made it possible for me to believe, I never would have. Yet God is not the irresistible cause of my believing.

    If God imposes restrictions on one believing, and efficaciously causes another to believe, the one that is prevented by the poser of God from believing:,For what will he be held accountable for on judgment day.

    Christ is in essence the only opportunity ever given by which a man might be saved. My faith is the only way through which I can, or anyone else can, come near to him. But before you will come to him, you must believe in him. Ever notice that the bible is all about what Christ has done.

    Concerning your scripture; "But as many as received Him,"
    There's your act of faith right there. To receive him is incumbent upon one believing in him. Yet you erroneously say that regeneration comes first..

    Since when, and where is "to receive", not a volitional act.

    Where does the bible say that faith is the result of regeneration?

    Faith cometh by hearing. The bible said it, do you believe it. “FAITH COMETH BY HEARING” You steadfastly underestimate the power of the gospel. And inadvertently you deny the truthfulness of this passage. The gospel: It is the power of God unto salvation.

    God gives a measure of faith to all men. It is either rejected and lays dormant in a person, or we accept God's gift and make it our own. "It is now, our faith". (((It is mine, God gave it to me.))) When we embrace the gift that God gives in conjunction with true repentance; repentance initiated by hearing the Gospel; by the power of god, we are born again from above; we are justified, set aside unto good works.

    Only now does the processes of regeneration begin, and it continues until we die. Such is evidenced by our strengthening ability to live a life that is pleasing to God as each day passes.

    Pardon me for saying this, but efficacious grace is a falsehood perpetrated by Satan upon the body of Christ. Like all of Satan's enticements, they are all peppered with just enough scripture, just enough truth to make his deceptions believable.

    So do not think that just because you can find some scripture to substantiate your misconception that it is of God. Look at Christ's temptation in the wilderness. In his effort to deceive the Son of God, that rascal was quoting scripture. So I am neither impressed nor deterred.

    Efficacious grace does not fit with the revealed nature of God. Efficacious grace is the act of a God that is not just, and is a respecter of persons. No need to tell me that the apple is not red, I’m looking at it. Eg. is unjust. My God is not.
     
  9. ForumChaplain

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    None of the passages that you have selected accomplish your purpose, chose one or two that are your favorites and i shall respond to them.

    God's criteria is God's criteria. The criteria for choice must originate in the one making a choice, nevertheless it must be found to a greater or lesser degree within the object that is chosen. So, yes; God's criteria is God's criteria. Yet criteria is still criteria.

    That is absolutely, positively not what i said. I say that man is capable only of responding to God. Man is never the initiator. And even then, not unless God draws or entices that person to respond.

    If God allows man to volitionaly respond to him, only then is man justifiably accountable to God for his actions. In order for man to be responsible (response + able}he has to have volition to chose the course of action that he took.

    If I am overpowered by a gentlemen and tied to the railroad tracks. When the 4:40 eastbound run's over me. Am i responsible. If left up to me, i never would allowed myself to be tied to the tracks. Am I painting a picture here of how illogical efficacious grace that holds one accountable is.

    Funny you should ask. 1 Corinthians 15:22
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    It is possible only if you reject Christ. Now i ask you; how is it possible for a man to be held accountable under efficacious grace?

    Are you seggesting that the age of your conclusion is surity of it's validity. Just suggests that if you got it wrong years ago, that you are still wrong.

    No one here argues that man does not have volition in salvation. The bible teaches that unless God unilaterally and efficaciously acts, man's free choice will always be to reject God (Rom 3, 8, Eph 2, John 1, etc.).[/qb]</font>[/QUOTE]You say that God chose absent criteria, yet God said that without faith, it is impossible to please him. Criteria=Faith.

    [ September 01, 2002, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  10. KenH

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    I am afraid you don't understand Calvinism. God is not stopping anyone from believing.

    Your second statement above is false.

    (2 Th 3:2 NKJV)...for not all have faith.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  11. ForumChaplain

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    I am afraid you don't understand Calvinism. God is not stopping anyone from believing.

    Your second statement above is false.

    (2 Th 3:2 NKJV)...for not all have faith.[/b]</font>[/QUOTE]And I am afraid that you do not understand what an unjust concept efficacious grace is. It murders the just nature of God revealed in scripture and makes him a respecter of persons.

    If you want to know just how unjust it is, consider yourself for just a moment as one of those not chosen. How would you like to wake up in hell one day and realize that all your praise was for nought. Even before you were born, your immortal soul was consigned to hell. Created for hell is more like it.

    A measure of faith. Enough to recognize the validity of the Gospel. And to embrace or reject it. You know that you do not reject something that you are totally unaware of..

    Romans 12:3
    3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
    KJV
    You said:
    2 Thess 3:2
    2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

    And why not? Back up a few passages and God will put into perspective what he say's here..

    2 Thess 2:10-12
    10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Obviously they rejected of their own volition..

    Ezek 33:3-5
    3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

    4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

    5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
    KJV

    KJV

    [ September 01, 2002, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  12. KenH

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    1) You'll have to try to find someone who believes in double predestination to argue that point with. I don't believe anyone is consigned to hell except for sin - it isn't because God arbitrarily consigned him there.

    2) The book of Romans was written to Christians to whom God had graciously granted faith, not to unbelievers. Therefore, your point is still false. Care to try again? [​IMG]

    3)Who is saying that they didn't? Not me.

    I would recommend you read a good introductory book on Calvinism such as Grace Unknown by R.C. Sproul. Even if after reading it you are still a non-Calvinist at least you will have a better, more accurate understanding of what we believe. [​IMG]

    Christian regards,

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite

    [ September 01, 2002, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    Chappie,

    You have given enough Scripture 'to choke a horse,' backing the idea that God calls for human beings to have faith in Jesus. Off the top of my head there are five other Scriptures that indicate that faith is a human response toward God.

    Ephesians 2:8-9, Hebrews 4:2; John 3:16; I Peter 1:9 & 21. In the last two verses of holy writ, noted here, Peter shows us that the faith that we have is not God's faith and gift, but our response to His offer of grace. 'Receiving the end of YOUR faith, even the salvation of your souls.' & 'Who by Him do believe in God, that raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that YOUR faith and hope migt be in God.'

    Our brethren cannot be convinced by multiple Scriptures because they are locked into a religious dogma that they feels is correct. At least we believe in the same Jesus who forgives our sins.
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    Some feel that God elects some for Heaven and the rest go to Hell because at the time of their death they are caught in their sins, making them the non-elect. A real Calvinist who believes that God elects some to Heaven, also not inadvertently, believes that God also autocratically damns the rest of humanity. This is not a pretty picture; but these are the facts. To me, the first sentence is a compromise as to what Calvinism really teaches. :cool:
     
  15. KenH

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    Frankly, I am amazed how consistently and constantly Calvinism is either misrepresented by those who are ignorant of it or else lied about by those that know better. Calvinists believe that a person must repent, believe, and live a life of holiness. I think non-Calvinists believe the same.

    The issue is whether God grants this to an individual so that salvation is 100% the work of God(Calvinism), or this is something the individual can do so that salvation is less than 100% the work of God as there is some percentage of the work that is performed by the person by his fallen will(non-Calvinism).

    Frankly, I am finding the efforts by non-Calvinists on this board to be nothing more than prooftexting and pitiful prooftexting at that. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: But I guess that is to be expected as non-Calvinists are arguing against Biblical teaching.

    Christian regards,

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  16. KenH

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    That, Ray, that is not true. I know what Calvinism teaches and I certainly know what I believe and why I believe it.

    There are double predestinationists. But the vast majority of Calvinists are single predestinationists. And to say that single predestinationists are de facto double predestinationists is mighty arrogant on your part.

    Christian regards,

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite

    [ September 01, 2002, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    Ken Hamilton,

    If you don't like our proof texts, lets hear your exegesis of the ones I offerd on September 1--at 8:20 p.m. You attempt to explain your texts but you must also interpret ours if your views are correct. We all gladly await your exegesis.
     
  18. KenH

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    Ray,

    You want me to refute that to be saved one must believe? How can I refute that since that is what I believe? :confused:

    Christian regards,

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    In Matthew 9:20 we have the true life story of the woman with 'the issue of blood.' If the woman trusted in any ability within herself she would not have touched the hem of His garment. Do you think that she had any idea that her human ability could change her condition? This had failed in the past. So she turns to Jesus knowing that His healing power could change her health condition if He desired to heal her. Her dependence was 100% in Him. It was only His healing grace that could change her condition. Notice what Jesus said to her. 'Daughter, be of good comfort; THY FAITH hath made thee whole.' Jesus did not tell us that it was His faith imparted to her that healed her, but rather her trust and reliance in Jesus that accomplished the healing grace.

    This is a rather good portrayal as to what happens when the sinner is convicted and convinced of his or her spiritual condition. Realizing that we cannot take one spiritual step toward Heaven, we trust in Jesus as our only hope of everlasting life. Our faith in Jesus 110% ability to save us from sins and grant to us eternal life is our firm belief.

    Jesus did not say to the woman with the 'issue of blood,' "No you cannot have faith in me becase that is a human work." Her trust in His ability was treasured by the Lord and she was never reprimanded for her humble approach to Him on this monumental day.

    Again, ' . . . thy faith hath made thee whole.' Trust me, if God was trying to protect His healing grace, He would have gently set this woman straight on this occasion. Calvinists some how feel they are protecting His wonderful grace when we say that faith is a human beings response to God. This is not necessary any more than it was necessary to correct the woman with the 'issue of blood.'
     
  20. ForumChaplain

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    1) You'll have to try to find someone who believes in double predestination to argue that point with. I don't believe anyone is consigned to hell except for sin - it isn't because God arbitrarily consigned him there.

    2) The book of Romans was written to Christians to whom God had graciously granted faith, not to unbelievers. Therefore, your point is still false. Care to try again? [​IMG]

    3)Who is saying that they didn't? Not me.

    I would recommend you read a good introductory book on Calvinism such as Grace Unknown by R.C. Sproul. Even if after reading it you are still a non-Calvinist at least you will have a better, more accurate understanding of what we believe. [​IMG]

    Christian regards,

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
    </font>[/QUOTE]The book of Romans was written to sinners, or are you saying that it is not part of the Gospel. It's application is extended to all men. It can be said that the whole bible is written to believers. As an unbeliever, is one exempt from the consequences of disobedience as detailed in Romans. Does Romans proclaim the good news of Christ, or better yet, would you show me what books of the bible were written to unbelievers.

    The only predestination that i believe in , is that ; once we are saved, we will be conformed into the image of Christ.

    Not all calvinist believe exactly as you do, being unaware of your specific beliefs, i did not attempt to address them.

    Much of what Calvinism teaches is scriptural, but they really lose it with that efficacious grace stuff.
     

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