Featured Given EQUALS draw - Jn. 6:44,65

This is not proof but another unsubstantiated assertion that I have contradicted Scripture. You jerk on text out of context to use to support another text taken out of context!

The text "many are called but few are chosen" is not found in a context of drawing or giving. It is found in the context of God's servants being sent out to invite guests or parabolicly preachers preaching the gospel (Mt. 22:1-14).

First, in context it is the servants that do the calling but it is God that does the choosing. The words "are chosen" is passive voice proving it is not those being called that are doing the choosing but God. "Chosen" explains why any do respond to the call as Paul clearly and explicity states in 1 Thes. 1:4-5:

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election [chosen] of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost,

The word when delivered by his servants comes in "word only" without power and without the Holy Spirit and that is why it is rejected and always will be resisted by natural man (Rom. 8:7-8)

Hence, your "proof text" is taken out of context. It does not refer to the gospel being empowered by the Holy Spirit as in 1 Thes. 1:4-5. But simply human voiced invitations. The calling is by human invitation. However, "chosen" is the explanation for all who do accept. Why because they were chosen before the world began (Eph. 1:4). Why? Because they were chosen "to salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth." Why? Because the gospel did not come to them merely "in word only but IN POWER" - 1 Thes. 1:4-5.

However, your proof text is jerked out of context. This is a statement of the general call which is always ineffectual (called) in comparison to the effectual call "chosen" as in 1 Cor. 1:26-29 and Romans 8:29-30. In Romans 8:29-30 ALL that are called according to God's "purpose" (v. 28) were predestinated, foreknown, justified and glorified. 100% Just as in John 6:37-39 ALL that were given 100% come to Christ and NOTHING is lost - 100%

So you are jerking texts out context, perverting their contextual meaning and then comparing apples with oranges.

That is false! As "draw" equals "given" in John 6:44,65. Indeed, "given" refers to coming to Christ in faith (v. 64). That is the difference between those "called" by gospel preachers (servants - Mt. 22:1-13) and those "chosen" by God. What I have stated is CONTEXTULLY BASED whereas your whole argument rests upon cherry picking texts out of context and weaving them together with a meaning that perverts their.

Furthermore, and most significantly, that Matthew 22:1-14 it is the servants that do the calling but it is God that does the choosing. "are chosen" is passive voice not active voice. It is not those being called that do this choosing but God. Another inconvenient contextual based grammatical fact that exposes your interpretation as error.

False! Those drawn/given (vv. 44-65) ALL come to Christ. "him" that is drawn equals "him" that is raised (v. 44). "ALL" (v. 45b) equals "EVERYONE" (v. 45b) which none fail to "come" to Christ (v. 45c).

Again, your triangular argument consists of jerking Mt. 22:14 out of another context and forcing it in John 6, while at the same time perverting "draw" by denying it equals "given" in John 6:44,65.

Your mental gymnastics are simply a mess of confusion.

Because you ignore that verse 65 substitutes "given" for "draw" in verse 44 making them synonymous. As long as you ignore the contextual definition of "draw" then you can play your silly little mind games.

Sorry but I am not Jesus Christ so I am not the one who substituted "given" for "draw" in verse 65 and in verse 65 he is referring back to verse 44 and YOU KNOW IT!

The "ALL" is QUALIFIED by Isaiah whom he quotes to be ALL his "CHILDREN". The "ALL" is qualified to be "EVERYONE" (v. 45) and "EVERYONE" is qualified by the fact they all "come to me" (v. 45c).

Furthermore, the "ALL" is qualified in verse 65 to be only those "given" to the Son by the Father which is the "ALL" in verses 37,39 and "OF ALL" those "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING.

Furthermore, the "ALL" is qualified by the "him" of verse 44a which is the grammatical "him" of verse 44b who are "raised at the last day" to the resurrection of life.

No exceptions that "ALL" who are drawn/given (vv. 44,65) that "EVERYONE" of them "come to me" (v. 45c).

No, the "him" drawn in verse 44a is the same "him" drawn in verse 44b. That is simply the fact of grammar. Can you find any other antecedent for the second "him" in verse 44 other than the first "him" in verse 44??? NO! So much for your interpetation.

Second the "all" in verse 45 is a quotation from Isaiah 13;14 which is further QUALIFIED to be only God's "children"

Third, the "ALL" in verse 45 is further QUALIFIED by "EVERYONE" in verse 45 which is translation of the very same Greek word translated "ALL" in the first part of verse 45.

Fourth the "EVERYONE" in verse 45 is further QUALFIED to be those who do in fact "come to me" - v. 45c.

So your whole interpretation is repeatedly repudiated by the immediate context. However, you don't give hoot about contextual based interpretation do you?????:thumbs:

Confession is good for the soul! Thanks! Now just admit that "him" in verse 44a is the same "him" in verse 44b unless you can invent another rule of grammar about nearest antecedants for pronouns????????


44 No man [singular]can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: [singular] and I will raise him [singular] up at the last day.

Both pronouns "him......him" have for their nearest antecedant the noun "man" in verse 44 - that is grammar and that repudiates, destroys and exposes your whole interpretation as false.

Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. - v. 65

"therefore I said" where? Oh! just previously in verse 44. What did He say in verse 44?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So, "given" is an equal substitute for "draw" according to Christ BUT NOT ACCORDING TO BOB!!!!!!

You have a four sided square but Christ gives a pentegon. HOw many sides does a pentegon have Bob? FIVE!

1. All those drawn are all those "given" - vv. 44,45
2. All those given come and none are lost - vv. 37-39
3. All those taught of God are those drawn
4. All those raised up are those drawn
5. All those coming have been given,drawn, taught

In context of Matthew 22:1-4 it is the servants that do the calling but it is God that chooses! "are chosen" is passive not active voice so it is not those called doing the choosing! Sorry another inconvenient contextually based grammatical fact that exposes your interpretation as false.

 

Notice how Bob has dodged and ignored the OP. The OP is that when Christ repeates in verse 65 what he said in verse 44 he substitutes "given" for "draw." This is the OP and yet Bob refuses to address it. Instead, he diverts, distracts, and attempts to change the subject.

Bob, answer the problem presented by the OP for "given" being substituted for "draw" by Christ in verse 65!!!

 

No one thus far has even attempted to address the Biblical fact that John 6:65 replaces the word "draw" with "given" and the consequences of that replacement in John 6:39 where "OF ALL" that are "given" NONE SHALL BE LOST!

Bob, has ignored this problem, tried to take scripture OUTSIDE this context to pervert the contextual meaning and application. But NONE have attempted to provide any contextual based response.

In addition, NONE have attempted to address the problem in John 6:38-39 that the one obligated to do the Father's will are not saints but the Son. It is the will of the Father that THE SON lose nothng "OF ALL" that the Father gave him.

These two Biblical facts completely destroy the false doctrine that true born again children of God can be unsaved, unjustified, unborn. This false doctrine is the heart of "another gospel" or justification ultimately by the works of a "will" not kept by the power of God.

 

You and bob need to read posts more closely. Bob's response does not address the OP at all. He simply sidesteps the whole issue. Read my response to Bob's post carefully and you can easily see he is simply making assumptions that the context contradicts directly.

 

You can't read your own interpretation of John 12:32 BACK INTO Jn. 6:44 when the context of John 6:44 (Jn. 6:37-40; 65) directly contradicts your interpretation in both John 12:32 and John 6. The context of John 6:37-65 directly and explicity repudiates your whole line of rationale.

First, he makes it clear he is repeating John 6:44 rather than implementing some different new idea as you are suggesting. "Therefore I said unto you"

1. "no man" in both verse 44 and 65 refer to the very exact same persons - all men without exception - all the lost and fallen mankind -

2. What all mankind without exception can't do is "come to me" in both verses

3. The only EXCEPTION to this rule is the SAME EXCEPTION found in verse 44 as in verse 65 RATHER THAN SOME ADDITIONAL EXCEPTION to that one in verse 44.

4. Hence, "draw" EQUALS "given" and it EQUALS it in regard to the very same EXCEPTION which is COMING TO CHRIST that without that exception NO MAN CAN DO.

5. John 6:65 is Christ's EXPLANATORY response to those in verse 64 who do not believe and NEVER DID believe from the very beginning. God never did "draw" them; that ability was never "given to" those in verse 65.

This is only the beginning of your misinterpretation. The "him" drawn is the same "him" raised to resurrection of life in verse 44 - one out of every one drawn comes to Christ. So your complete interpetation is exposed as faulty thinking and reasoning and complete perversion of the text in its context.

 

Impossible! I posted my response to you first, and then posted my response to Bob, the response I was referring to in my post to you is the one I posted afterwards. Bob has not yet responded to my post. Try something new! Try to give reasons rather than just unsubstantiated assertions.

 

Bob Ryan is the only person on this forum that opposes OSAS that has attempted to address this thread from a contextual point of view. I tip my hat to his attempts to defend his position from a contextual based position. That is rare among his camp.

However, his argument broke down under the context. The word "given" in John 6:65 cannot possibly be denied as a term chosen by Christ to be synonymous with "draw" in John 6:44 as a comparison between John 6:44 and John 6:65 clearly shows.

Furthermore, the phrase "cometh to me" contextually means "beleiveth on me" - Jn. 6:35.

When these two facts are considered together from a contextual point of view then "given" in John 6:65 demands that beleiving on Christ must be given by the Father and is explantory why those in John 6:64 did not believe on him and never beleived on him as Jesus knew they were false professors, false disicples "from the beginning."

Furthermore, this makes "given" contextually equal to "draw" in regard to anyone who "cometh unto me." From John 6:37,39 ALL who are given do come to Christ in faith and "OF ALL" given NONE are lost. This is an iron clad contextual based absolute proof for OSAS.

 

First, the word "all" can mean "all" without distinction rather than all without exception

All without distinction is the ONLY POSSIBLE contextual meaning for several reasons:

1. The immediate context that is responsible for this statement are GENTILES seeking Christ. Thus "all classes of men"

2. Not all men without exception have even heard of jesus Christ or the cross

3. John 6:35-39 has already restricted this "all" to only those "given" by the Father and ALL do come that are given and NONE are lost that are given.

4. John 6:44 has already proven that "him" that is drawn is the very same "him" that is raised up to the resurrection of life.

5. John 6:45 has already restricted "ALL" who are taught by the Father is "EVERYONE" that "cometh to me"

6. John 6:64-65 has already defined "him" that is drawn is him that is "given" faith in Christ and that is why those in verse 64 did not believe or come to him in faith.

You cannot overturn a single one of these absolutes because you have tried already and failed. You are again repeating the same failures.

 

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He most certainly did say that all drawn will come to him in John 6:44-45,64-65

1. He said that the SAME "him" drawn is the SAME "him" he will raise up to life - v. 44

2. He said the SAME "him" drawn is the "ALL" and "EVERYONE" that cometh to me -v. 45

3. He said the SAME "him" that cometh to me is ONLY those "given" faith to come to Christ by the Father - v. 65

4. He said those who believe not in verse 64 the Father had not "given" them faith to come to Christ.

5. "cometh to me" MEANS "believeth on him" - Jn. 6:35 and that must be "given" by the Father - Jn. 6:65

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No I do not. I insist he will "DRAW ALL" mankind without distinction of gender, race, class for the following contextual based reasons:

1. The immediate context that is responsible for this statement are GENTILES seeking Christ. Thus "all classes of men"

2. Not all men without exception have even heard of jesus Christ or the cross

3. John 6:35-39 has already restricted this "all" to only those "given" by the Father and ALL do come that are given and NONE are lost that are given.

4. John 6:44 has already proven that "him" that is drawn is the very same "him" that is raised up to the resurrection of life.

5. John 6:45 has already restricted "ALL" who are taught by the Father is "EVERYONE" that "cometh to me"

6. John 6:64-65 has already defined "him" that is drawn is him that is "given" faith in Christ and that is why those in verse 64 did not believe or come to him in faith.

You cannot overturn a single one of these absolutes because you have tried already and failed. You are again repeating the same failures.

 

1. First, he conditions drawing "all" on him "being lifted up" and so he cannot possibly be referring to "all" mankind without exception from Adam to the last man living as the vast majority of men living never have heard of Jesus Christ or the cross between Genesis and the cross. So your interpretation is impossible.

2. Second, the immediate context that introduces this dissertation by Christ are Gentiles COMING TO HIM. Hence "all" classes of mankind.

3. Third, John 6:44-65 has already restricted drawing to those who actually come to faith in Christ and NNE ELSE!

a. Jn. 6:44 the very SAME "him" drawn is the very SAME "him" raised up to life by Christ.
b. "ALL" taught is "EVERYONE" that cometh to Christ in faith - Jn. 6:45

4. John 6:65 is explanatory of John 6:44 where Christ substitutes "given" for "draw" in verse 44 and that cannot be disputed.

a. Hence, "draw" is EQUAL to having something "given" unto him
b. The something "given" is coming to Christ in faith
c. Verse 65 is explanatory why those in verse 64 did not believe on him

Thus far you have IGNORED these contextual based truths and simply repeated your imaginary mantras.

Wrong! The immediate context of John 12 QUALIFIES this "all" and repudiates the possibility it can mean "all" mankind without exception.

1. Not all mankind without exception have even heard of jesus Christ or the cross and being lifted up on the cross is the condition for this statement.

2. This statement is the consequene of GENTILES seeking him in the context which was a CLASS of men the jews rejected and condemned as unclean.

3. The foregoing RELATED context in John 6 has already QUALIFIED the word "all" and "everyone" in connection with drawing to include only those that come to him in faith - (see evidences above already listed).

1. John 6 FIRST introduces and defines "ALL" in regard to both being drawn and coming to Christ. John 12 follows and cannot be interpreted to contradict John 6 and the more fuller explanation.

2. The "all" in John 6 and 12 is QUALIFIED by immediate context to be the very same ones in both passages as the above evidences proves.

Again, you are ignoring immediate context - who is he talking to - a Jewish ruler who restricted salvation to only one class of humanity = Jews.

The term "world" can also be interpreted as ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION rather than all men without exception. God hated Esau and so there is one exception that defies your interpretation of all without exception.

John 3:36 it is the "wrath" of God upon all unbeleivers rather than the Love of God. The Love of God can only be found "IN" Christ as there is no love, redemption, salvation OUTSIDE of Christ for anyone at anytime.

That is exactly what he means and what he has already said in John 6:44-45 when he FIRST introduced and explained drawing. "ALL" in verse 45 equals "EVERYONE" and "EVERYONE" that has heard and learned of the Fathe "cometh to me" in faith. The "him" that is drawn in verse 44 is the very same "him" that is raised up to life by Christ so "him" drawn EQUALS "him" that cometh to me in faith. This is indisputable and is impossible to overturn as it is grammatically impossible to overthrow.

Repeatedly I have pointed out why your argument fails the context. It fails because it is the SAME "him" drawn that is raised to life eternal - that is indisputable because it is based upon indisputable English and Greek grammar.

Furthemore the double "him" in verse 44 is EQUAL to the "ALL" and "EVERYONE" in verse 45 which all come to Christ in faith. This is equally indisputable because of its grammatical basis.


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Wrong! John 6:65 is a restatement of John 6:44 and that is obvious and explicit because of the words "therefore I said" (past tense).

However, John 6:65 in its immediate context is the explanation given by Christ for why those in verse 64 did not believe on him and who were departing from him. They did not believe on him BECAUSE the Father had NEVER drawn them, and it is impossible to come to Christ in faith unless that faith is "given unto him." That is why believing on him is "the work of God" (Jn. 6:29). To come to Christ is EQUAL to beleiving on him (Jn. 6:35).

Every single argument you have set forth contradicts immediate context.

Instead of repeating argments that have been exposed and repudiated, try dealing with the evidences I have set forth in a direct manner instead of ignoring them. That would be refreshing for a change!

 

According to who? You?????

First the passage says nothing about "one person"! That is from your perverted imagination which is necessary to make this foolish response.

He draws from all genders, all classes, all races - Rev. 5:9

Where does the term "draw" or "given" found in Romans 2:11-16

Where are the terms "saint" "elect" "saved" "believer" "child of God" "born again" "brother" found in this passage? Answer - NO WHERE

This passage does not deal with salvation, the saved, drawing, election, redemption but only with those who believe JUST LIKE YOU DO - self-righteous moralists who believe in justification by the law.

Again the term world refers to all classes, genders, nations - all without distinction. Those he is addressing still did not get this concept of the world until Acts 10.

Light of conscience, light of nature, light of reason (Rom. 1:20-21) but "light" is not drawing as "ALL" who are taught of God "EVERYONE" cometh to Christ in faith in the sene used in John 6:44-45.

The context of John 12 QUALIFIES IT to refer to all classes as it is in direct response to GENTILES seeking him. It is further qualified by previous spelled out doctrinal foundations laid in John 6. John 12 is to be interpreted by John 6 not vice versa. John 6 provides greater criteria and explanation and it is provided FIRST.

your mind is warped. Have you ever heard of the hermeneutical principle of "FIRST MENTION." Probably not. John 6:29-68 is the FIRST definitive text to spell out in no uncertain terms what it means to come to Christ in faith. Drawing in this context is first spelled out in John 6:44-45,64-65. The principle of FIRST MENTION provides the definitive pattern that later passages dealing with the same subject matter are defined by not the reverse - this is just plain old common sense which obviously you don't have much of when it comes to hermeneutics or Biblical exposition.

John 6 restricts "ALL" in regard to drawing - Jn. 6:45. John 6 provides FIRST MENTION when it comes to defining the doctrine - not John 12.

Are you reading funny books or writing your ownBible???? John 6:63 says no such things:

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


The word does not have eternal life in and of itself but only in connection with the spirit that quickeneth.

He is addressing "you" not "ALL mankind" as you read into the text.

There is not one word about rejecting or accepting anything but in your imaginations.

You just read into texts what you want, that is why your thinking is so messed up.

The text says no such thing! Says NOTHING about "accept" or "choices" or "all men" or "foreknows"! These are all things you are attemptng to READ INTO the text. That is why your mind is so messed up, because you take terms from other contexts and try to force them into texts that say NOTHIING about them.

These men were unbelievers "FROM THE BEGINNING" and never had a TRUE profession of faith but were FALSE professors "FROM THE BEGINNING" because the Father never had "given" them faith in Christ -v. 65

John 6:65 says no such thing. He does not even use the word "draw" or "drawn." He says nothing about "THEM" but only about "HIM." There is no "AMONG" but only "him." If faith to come to Christ is not "given to him" then he remains an unbeliever "FROM THE BEGINNING" until it is "given unto him" by the Father.

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


The only "square" here is your thinking that tries to make everything fit in a round hole.