Glorified

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jun 10, 2014.

  1. Van

    Van
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    Many times an oft used word in scripture is not well understood. But by doing a word study where we consider all the verses where the underlying Hebrew or Greek word appears in scripture, or as used by a particular author, we can arrive at a better understanding of the message being conveyed by the inspired writer.

    Glorified has a range of meanings, but if we narrow down to how the Greek word is used by Paul, we can boil it down to two meanings:

    1) To cause the dignity and worth of someone (God or a person) or something (i.e. the Word of the Lord) to become manifest and acknowledged. Thus in this sense, it is something we do, by word or by deed. For example, if we follow God and strive to live righteously and avoid sin, we “glorify God.”
    2) To be exalted to the same glory to which Jesus has been raised. Thus, in this sense, it is something God does to us. Another word, meaning glorified together is used in this same sense at Romans 8:17.​

    So just how have we been, past tense, glorified by God as taught at Romans 8:30? We all expect to be clothed in glorified, immortal bodies, at Christ’s second coming, our adoption as sons, so the past tense glorification appears to refer to our spiritual condition in Christ as born anew creations.

    1) Christ rose from the dead, so He was made alive physically. We were made alive spiritually when God put us in Christ, Ephesians 2:5
    2) Christ lived a sinless physical life. We have been made holy and blameless in Christ.
    3) We who are spiritually in Christ have been predestined to be raised (or changed in the twinkling of an eye) in glorified bodies.​

    Paul taught all this in Romans 8, referring to us becoming brethren of our first born Christ, who have been called, justified, and glorified.

    The gospel of Christ.
     
  2. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    Excellent, Van. Well done.
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    We have been right now adopted by the father into the Beloved, right now have ternal life residing in us, and we await for the Lord to complete that process at the glorification of the physical body!
     
  4. Van

    Van
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    Yes, I know Yeshua1 claims not to be looking forward to the future adoption, because, once again, Romans 8:23 does not mean what it says. However, pretty much all of non-Cal Christianity is looking forward to our adoption at Christ's second coming, just as scripture says.
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    Unless we have been adopted here and now, we would not be sealed by the Spirit, and would not be his children in the Justified sense of that term!
     
  6. RLBosley

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    I think everyone here could benefit from reading some of George Ladd's work on the concept of "already/not yet" fulfillment.
     
  7. Van

    Van
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    No rational mind would claim a person born into a family needs to also be adopted. Yet we have the repeated posts of Yeshua1 making that assertion.

    The OP made a case for how we should understand Paul's use of the word translated "glorified." I have not seen any objections, so those wanting to discuss other topics, should start new threads.
     
  8. percho

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    Doesn't it have the same meaning as the ones chosen before the foundation of the world to be in Christ were at that time. past tense, predestined, called, justified and glorified for they would be adopted as sons, to be conformed to the image of his Son, the firstborn from the dead thereby making Son firstborn among many brethren when they are so conformed.

    It is the, "in Christ," that is in the past tense? We are predestined to be glorified, actual inheritors of glory, rather than heirs of glory.
     
  9. percho

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    Joint heirs with Christ. When was Christ glorified?

    Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Can we be glorified differently than Christ who has the preeminence?
     
  10. JamesL

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    Van,
    I'm curious, wondering if you can clarify....

    In a thread several months back, it seems to me that you were using "adoption as sons" and "redemption of the body" synonymously, as if to say that the redemption of the body is our adoption.

    But it seems that your view here is that our adoption happens at the time of the redemption of our body.

    Which are you saying?


    Also, I disagree that "glorified" in Romans 8:30 relates to 2Cor 5:17

    I think Percho is right, but it can be a little hard to understand his writing.
     
  11. Van

    Van
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    Hi JamesL, my understanding of adoption is as defined at Romans 8:23, our adoption as sons is our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming.

    No verse says we were chosen to be in Christ, Ephesians 1:4 reads chosen in Him, and the meaning of that phrase is unclear. One view is that when Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the Lamb of God, 1 Peter 1:19-20, that means He was chosen to be God's Redeemer. And of course, you do not choose a Redeemer unless you plan on redeeming people. So, when Christ was chosen as Redeemer, all those redeemed or to be redeemed were chosen corporately, not individually. So if you read the verse chosen [individually] in Him you get one view, but if you read it, chosen [corporately] you get quite another, i.e. chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.

    Why does it have to be corporate? Because otherwise you have scripture saying we were chosen individually before the foundation of the world and chosen individually after we had lived without mercy, 1 Peter 2:9-10. And again, only after we had lived and heard the gospel, could we be chosen "through faith in the truth." 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

    I do not see where anyone mentioned 2 Corinthians 5:17, but when we are raised up as a new creation in Christ, a born anew brother of Christ, I see that as being exalted to being a brother of our Lord. Seems likely to be included in Paul's concept of being glorified by God.
     
    #11 Van, Jun 13, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2014
  12. Yeshua1

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    God the father chose US, those whom would be saved, from eternity past, as we were to be saved and placed into Him, and that we are adopted when we get saved, as the seal of the Spirit is the mark God placed on us in adoption, and that confirms that we will indeed receive ALL that we are to get as His children at the resurrection!
     
  13. JamesL

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  14. Yeshua1

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  15. Van

    Van
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    Only an irrational mind would claim a person born anew into a family would need to be adopted to be the child of that family.
     
  16. percho

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    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence Col 1:18

    "That," ties firstborn from the dead to preeminence. Without one you do not have the other. What is being spoken of here is one who was born of woman not some concept of, "God the Son."

    who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord; Rom 1:4 YLT

    Even with Jesus the Christ the resurrection declares him to be Son. Why? Because according to the flesh he was the son of David, without the glory of God, I might add. Now he had prayed to Him who had begotten him of woman.

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
    Who by him (Jesus) do believe in God, (O Father that raised him (Jesus) up from the dead, and gave him (Jesus) glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. (The Father and the Son) 1 Peter 1:21

    Man including Jesus born of Mary:
    For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 1 Peter 1:24

    By the resurrection the Father gave to the Son glory that will not fade away. The glory he had in the Father before the foundation of the world.
    Phil 2:7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

    And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 1 Peter 5:4 How? But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom 8:11

    Before the world was it was predestined for there to be some to receive the same glory that the Christ, the Son of the Living God, would receive which had been emptied through being born of woman.
     
  17. JamesL

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    You're trying to use adoption to apply to a child, where scripture applies adoption to a son. And there is a difference

    Romans 8:15 - For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

    Romans 8:23 - And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

    Galatians 4:5 - so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

    Ephesians 1:5 - He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will


    There is a huge difference between the Greek teknon (child) and huios (son)

    "adoption as sons" - huiothesia, literally son placement

    We are not sons at conversion, but we wait eagerly to be adopted as son (Rom 8:23)
     
  18. Van

    Van
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    Hi Percho, let me give you a few tips for you to use in your posts. Start with telling us what you are going to tell us. Some rational, logic insight into scripture.

    For example, "Using the following verses of scripture, I intend to show how the resurrection of Jesus glorified Him."

    Then, rather than quoting the YLT or the KJV, use a modern version like the NET.

    "That," ties firstborn from the dead to preeminence, rather than chronology.

    God appointed Jesus as the suffering servant before His resurrection, but as having all authority and power after the resurrection. So when Jesus prays to be glorified, He is referring to taking back His power and authority as illustrated in John 17.

    Percho, I could go on, rewriting your post, but hopefully you get the idea...
     
    #18 Van, Jun 15, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2014
  19. JamesL

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    Van, I'm sorry I haven't replied yet. I typed a reply twice, but it would not submit. I kept getting a gateway error for some reason - alas.


    I'd really like to just give some parameters and a little bit of overview, then get down to details as we go along.


    Romans 8:23 is, to me, a very confounding verse because my view seems iron-clad except for this one verse. I will admit that I am not fluent in Greek, but am only learning it. I have done a tremendous amount of word study, and understand tenses, voices, etc, and even some phrase structure, but I do not understand complete sentences. So I have a theory about this verse, but it is only that - a theory, based on an incomplete knowledge of Greek. In other words, I have to press my view onto the text to make it mean something it may not say.


    I believe you wrote that in your view, adoption and glorification are synonymous. I would agree with that, but I think I may disagree with your view of glorification.

    I see glorification in a much broader sense than simply receiving a glorified body. I believe glory is synonymous with honor, and to be glorified is to be set in a place of honor as a son.

    Therefore, I believe adoption to be taking place at the time of resurrection, though I can also see a place for thinking that the resurrection is one aspect of our adoption.

    But not synonymous in a strict, all encompassing sense


    Hope this gives you something to chew on, and I'll offer details as we go along.
     
  20. JamesL

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    I like what you're trying to do here, Van. I have read some of Percho's posts on this issue, and I think he has some good insights. And I even think he and I might have the same exact view.

    But as you've noted, it is very hard to determine exactly where he stands because of his writing style.
     

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