God allows but does not author evil

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Feb 25, 2012.

  1. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hello Aresman, I have addressed all these bogus points before. Please address my views on your points or discussion seems pointless.

    1. Every choice is intentional. Yes, and we always choose what we desire at that moment in time, except for when we make mistaken choices like reaching to catch the ball, but missing it, was not a choice driven by desire, but by frailty.
    2. Every choice is not a non-choice because we can alter our desire at any point in time, whether the greater evil or the greater good.
    3. It is not necessary that God knows the future exhaustive, only that God has the capacity to know the future exhaustive. The Bible teaches that God has the capacity to choose not to know the future exhaustively. So if the Bible is our only authority, and not the doctrines of men, or the traditional views of men, then it is necessary God has the power to choose whatever pleases Him, which could be to remember no more, or test people to find out what their heart desires. (Not saying that is what God chose to do, because that would be unorthodox, but simply saying God has that capacity because all things are possible with God.)
    4. It does not matter whether some Arminians are compatibilist, but as an observation I agree some Arminians think it is possible for God to know something beforehand, yet we make that choice, it is as if God only knew what we freely chose.
    5. Next, you introduce the Theodicy issue, which I have also addressed many times in the past. God allows men to do evil because that is according to His purpose of creation. This does not make Him the author of that evil. OTOH, the calamity that God does cause, and we, i.e. those affected adversely, would call the calamity evil, does not make God’s actual calamity evil because in His eyes, the calamity is necessary for His purpose.
    6. Yes God could have chosen not to create the capacity to choose evil in man, but that would not have fulfilled the purpose of God creating man. And He could have chosen not to allow the adverse consequences of evil choices, but again He did. We are not in a position to judge the decisions God makes according to His purpose, only to accept that if we understand His revealed decisions, they are perfect and just and never evil in His eyes.
    7. Yes, we walk in the purview God allows us to walk, we make plans but God directs our feet. He can harden our hearts and remove our ability to choose to trust in Christ, but He also allows us, with our heart unhardened by the practice of sin or His intervention to trust in Christ.
    8. No one is arguing in favor of Open Theism, but that everything is not predestined which is open theism to a limited degree. Try to stay focused on the actual issue.
    9. The Theodice problem is not a mystery, the Bible explains it, but it is off topic, addressing what you think is the motive of explaining why God allows the evil consequences of mankind’s evil choices. But the motive for saying everything is not predestined is to make comprehensible the punishment God gives those who choose to sin.
    In summary, the motive for saying everything is not predestined is because that is my understanding of scripture, i.e. Jesus says things happen by chance. The rebuttal to nullify this scripture is that since God knows the future exhaustively everything is predestined, which puts a manmade doctrine, not supported by scripture, above scripture. As a Baptist who believes in scripture alone, I reject that argument.
     
  2. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Yes, if God predestines our sins, then He is the author of those sins.

    Yes God desired that Adam sin because He arranged the circumstances that would test Adam and provide the opportunity for Adam to choose to sin. But He did not predestine by any means Adam’s sin, Adam made the choice to sin and could have chosen, at that time, to not sin and reject the offered fruit of the forbidden tree.

    I did not muddy the waters, I addressed my view of the scriptural account of Peter’s denial, where the circumstances were not the same. In both cases my view is consistent with all scripture.
     
    #2 Van, Feb 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2012
  3. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,154
    Likes Received:
    0
    Foreknowledge does not equal predestination. It's self contradictory, for since God knows every possible outcome of everything that never comes to pass, the fact that those things never come to pass proves that he did not predestined those things that he foreknew but foreknew would not come to pass.
     
  4. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    No Winman, your claim is incomprehensible. First you invent a divine crystal ball, sorcery, which is a forbidden sin. You say God can look into the future, before it happens and know what will happen. But if the future exists in the metaphysical realm of your imagination, then whatever is that future is fixed, i.e. bananas with no chance at apples.

    Next, you do not seem to realize that Prophecy is fixed. God says what will happen in the future, like the Angels will win the World Series, and then He takes whatever action is necessary to bring that outcome about. Totally different than your imagined view of Prophecy. You need to study it and see if you can find in scripture where God explains how He “fulfills” His prophecies. It is all there and it is crystal but no ball is mentioned or suggested. J

    God gave us His Word, and authenticated it will miracles, like Jesus rising from the dead, and that is real power. But when men make up powers and give them to God, they deny His Word.
     
    #4 Van, Feb 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2012
  5. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Reply to Fiction

    Your assertion Sir is long on imagination and short of supporting scripture.

    God does know what existing people would choose to do given a circumstance, i.e. Peter's denial or stretching out his hands to go where he does not want to go, or that townspeople, had they seen Christ's miracles, would have repented.

    I see no need to extrapolate that to everything the minds of men can invent.

    And as far as logic is concerned, you do realize that if God knows something will happen it will because that is predestined, and if He knows something will not happen, it will not happen because that too is predestined. :)
     
  6. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,154
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, God foreknew all the blessings that the Israelites would have gotten if they had obeyed (cf Deut), otherwise he flat out fibbed!
     
  7. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    I thought the false view of God not knowing everything was not allowed in the baptist section.

    God knows everything. End of story.
     
  8. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,154
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen, brother! He even knows every thing that could happen but won't. Now that is exhaustive knowledge!
     
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    I want to ask a question?

    There is one who is a strong believer at this time and there was a guy who drove drunk and hit the strong believer and killed the strong believers family.

    It was predestined for that action that person was an alcoholic it was bound to happen eventually and there was nothing that man who was a strong believer to change the stripes on that drunk driver. Who could of never knew it was coming.

    The strong believer turned away from God and died hating God and the alcoholic turned to God, sobered up and became a strong evangelist.

    The once strong believer was it predestined for him to turn away from God?
     
    #9 psalms109:31, Feb 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2012
  10. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,154
    Likes Received:
    0
    One son said I go, father, but didn't. The other said, I won't, father, but later did. Which was the truly obedient (saved)?
     
  11. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,154
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some are in the church but don't have wedding garments, so to speak.
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,926
    Likes Received:
    95
    NO & again you have the wrong understanding of predestination.
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,926
    Likes Received:
    95
    Thats another way of saying it....who then had the total & absolute belief in God? The answer is in "Does it bear fruit?" ....which is really another one I phased badly. LOL
     
  14. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,154
    Likes Received:
    0
    Right you are, brother!
     
  15. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    I want to ask a question?

    There is one who is a strong believer at this time and there was a guy who drove drunk and hit the strong believer and killed the strong believers family.

    It was predestined for that action that person was an alcoholic it was bound to happen eventually and there was nothing that man who was a strong believer to change the stripes on that drunk driver. Who could of never knew it was coming.

    The strong believer turned away from God and died hating God and the alcoholic turned to God, sobered up and became a strong evangelist.

    The once strong believer was it predestined for him to turn away from God?

    Was he really a strong believer or the seed wasn't really planted because he let trials and tribulations choke it out?
     
    #15 psalms109:31, Feb 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2012
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,926
    Likes Received:
    95
    May I venture to ask you what your exact definition of "Predestination" is?
     
  17. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Reply to Lack of Logic

    God knowing what He plans to bring about does not suggest He does not plan to provide us with a purview in which to act autonomously.
     
  18. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Everything is not predestined and God is not the author of sin. It is not orthodox to say God predestines sin, but that is somehow allowed. Find that in a Baptist creed!
     
  19. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi Winman:

    Read Isaiah 44:24-28. In verse 26, where God says He confirms the word of his servant, it means He brings about what His servant prophesies. Where it says He performs or fulfills the purpose of His messengers, it is saying God causes it to happen. God prophesies that the cities of Judea will be built, and then it says that God will raise them up, again fulfilling prophecy by intervention to bring it about.

    The word fulfill means to repay, the idea is that when God purposes or says something an obligation is created which is repaid when God brings it about. He fulfills prophecy.
     
  20. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Yes, Psalm 109:31, according to Calvinism, everything is predestined, the strong believer, the crash that takes his family, the drunk driver, the eventual salvation of the one and the eternal damnation of the other, life is simply on rails, and we can alter nothing, everyone is predestined to heaven or hell and nothing, not praying for loved ones, teaching our children, dying as a missionary will alter one person's afterlife. This is the gospel according to Calvinism and it is false doctrine according to scripture.
     

Share This Page

Loading...