God as author of sin for the last time....

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by russell55, Sep 14, 2002.

  1. russell55

    russell55
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    ....I hope.

    Here is a page that lists the order of decrees for the four major systems--Supralapsarianism (a small branch of 5 pt. Calvinism), Infralapsarianism (the largest branch of 5 pt. Calvinism), Amyraldianism (a systematic 4 pt Calvinism), and last, but not least, Arminianism.

    Order of Decrees

    I don't want to get into any discussion of the order of decrees. I just want to point out that every single system has God decreeing to permit sin.

    So do you think it is possible that we could drop the "your God is the author of sin" topics once and for all, because on the point that God decreed to permit sin, all of our systems agree?

    Okay, everyone, repeat after me:

    God is not the author of sin, He permits it.....God is not the author of sin, He permits it....God is not..... [​IMG]

    [ September 14, 2002, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  2. KenH

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    I'm convinced. [​IMG]

    Ken :D
     
  3. russell55

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    Oops...the page is not working now for me, so I will copy and paste the decrees in case you can't get it to work either.

    Supralapsarianism </font>
    • 1. Elect some, reprobate rest
      2. Create
      3. Permit Fall
      4. Provide salvation for elect
      5. Call elect to salvation</font>
    Infralapsarianism </font>
    • 1. Create
      2. Permit Fall
      3. Elect some, pass over the rest
      4. Provide salvation for elect
      5. Call elect to salvation</font>
    Amyraldianism </font>
    • 1. Create
      2. Permit Fall
      3. Provide salvation sufficient for all
      4. Elect some, pass over rest
      5. Call elect to salvation</font>
    Arminianism </font>
    • 1. Create
      2. Permit Fall
      3. Provide salvation for all
      4. Call all to salvation
      5. Elect those who believe</font>

    [ September 14, 2002, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  4. russell55

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    Good. Then at least I won't have to worry about you starting any "Your God is the Author of Sin" conversations, right??? :D
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    We must have finally hit the soft under-belly of Calvinistic teaching. I thought God was sovereign. And if He is sovereign He controls everying. If He controls everything then one would have to conclude that God is the author of sin. A full Calvinist would have to say that He introduced sin or otherwise a human or the Devil, of his own free will and accord, made the decision to have this horrible, and most terrible, menace in our world.
     
  6. Ray Berrian

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    The late, Rev. Dr. Rudolph, Systematic Theolgy professor of the former Reformed Episcopal Seminary in Philadelphia taught that God is the Author of sin. He was also a double predesinarian, meaning that he believed God elected the saved for Heaven and also the lost for Hell.

    He was also a pastor in the Reformed Episcopal Church. Drs. Kuehner, Higgins, and Herter were the other professors while I was a student there. [​IMG]
     
  7. KenH

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    Brother Ray,

    I don't think there is anyone on this forum that advocates or supports the idea that God is the author of sin. There are Calvinists that believe some wacky things, and non-Calvinists that believe some wacky things. I don't think it helps our discussions in this forum for us to attribute to our brothers and sisters the worst that may be found in the opposing camp. And I suspect you will agree. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  8. rlvaughn

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    Good point, Ken. I know some Baptists that believe and preach that God is the author of sin. One of these preachers that I know attributed Andrea Yates' drowning of her children to God. But your point needs to be given the utmost consideration. A fringe element on the far side of Calvinism should not be taken and held up as what Calvinists believe. The same is true for Arminianism, and Calvinists should be careful not to "return the favor."

    Here is one area I think Calvinists need to approach with caution: "Arminians do not believe in the Sovereignty of God." Now you may think (and be correct) that Arminian doctrine is not consistent with the Sovereignty of God. That is not the same thing as denying the Sovereignty of God. I always believed in the Sovereignty of God, from young Christian who knew nothing of theology, to "2-pt Calvinist" preacher, to "Fullerite", to "Calvinist", to "hyper-Calvinist", to Sovereign Grace believer with his "own theology". I have never doubted God's absolute sovereignty, though I have gone through a spiritual journey in which at previous times I had a different understanding of how God pleased to do things. But I always believed He could do what He pleased. Just bringing this up for an example of how we may do the same kind of thing.

    [ September 14, 2002, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    Sorry we disappointed you, Ray. [​IMG]
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    You have offered nice thoughts gentlemen, but your remarks do not answer your views of God's all encompassing sovereignty. If God is sovereign in everything, then He must have willed and Authored this entity which we call sin. A full concept of sovereignty demands such a view. Apparently, this is just a mite more of sovereignty than the average Calvinist can deal with as he or she reviews Biblical facts.

    Allowing sin is more of an Arminian concept as to how sin was made evident in our world. Of course, God has allowed the fallen angel/the Devil and human beings to have a free will. As we study the Bible we understand the ramifications of our decisions, especially in the matter of His free offer of grace to the lost.
     
  11. KenH

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    Brother Ray,

    Okay, we Calvinists in this forum, none of whom believe that God is the author of sin, agree with the "Arminian" concept of God permitting sin to take place. Fair 'nough? [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    Ken Hamilton, post on Sept. 14 10:17 p.m.

    It works for me. [​IMG]
     
  13. rlvaughn

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    So, Ray, is it your position that God is not sovereign in everything?
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    rlvaughn,

    Thanks for asking . . .

    Almighty God is 110% sovereign in all of His actions. But, as far as His plan of salvation He has limited what He might have done, by ordaining a plan that allows humankind to receive Christ as personal Savior. He impliments this perfect plan by convicting and convincing human beings of that need when they hear the most excellent news of the Gospel.
     
  15. rlvaughn

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    Here there is no disagreement between you and Calvinists, and, as I see it, the statements by you that followed on salvation do not touch on the "God is the author of sin" issue. I think it is quite possible that we reach the place that we are into semantics rather than debating any substantive difference between Arminians and Calvinists. Both evidently believe in the sovereignty of God (that He can do as He pleases). That there is difference on the details we do not deny. But I do deny that the following is true:
    This is a very slippery slope for everyone. I think you and other Arminians believe He willed it in the sense of His permissive will. Below is the way the Baptists in London explained it in 1644:
    Do I believe that God makes people sin? NO. Do I believe that His eternal counsel from before the foundation of the world encompasses all things that come to pass? YES. I do not see how one can believe otherwise without arriving at a position of believing that God did know really what will come to pass (that He is not omniscient). If God is all-knowing from eternity to eternity then we must assume that it at least pleases Him (and is then His will) to allow all to come to pass just as it has happened, is happening, and will happen.

    [ September 15, 2002, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     

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