"God became man so that we might become God"

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Rakka Rage, Feb 6, 2003.

  1. Rakka Rage

    Rakka Rage
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    Gen.3
    [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
     
  2. Ps104_33

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    Sounds like Mormonism, doesnt it?
     
  3. CatholicConvert

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    Yeah, it SOUNDS like Mormonism, but it isn't.

    Mormons have the following pithy little statement regarding this belief of theirs:

    As man is, so God was, as God is, so man may become.

    Did you get that? They are saying that the God of the universe was once JUST LIKE US.

    THAT, sir, is blasphemy of the highest order, and something that no Orthodox or Catholic would ever let escape their lips. God is ever and always TRANSCENDENT over His creation. Always was -- always will be.

    To understand what is being said here, you really ought to put it in a Biblical context:

    2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    Do you realize what in INCREDIBLE statement that is? God is actually taking creatures He has made and is sharing a part of Himself with us. He is making us LIKE UNTO HIMSELF....albeit again that we shall NEVER have His ESSENCE.

    This was the original plan in the Garden, for we see that God created man "in our image", didn't He? Was that image static, or was it made to so grow and become more and more a perfect reflection of and sharing of the glory of the Father? Think on it.

    Adam is called "the son of God" (Luke 3:38) Think on that. What does sonship entail? What does it mean to be a son? Use the earthly relationship you are familiar with to draw appropriate conclusions. That is why God has given us earthly realities.

    This becoming like God is called "divinization" or more popularly in Eastern theology "THEOSIS". It is that which each person ever created is called to. Adam is merely the prototype and Jesus is the perfection of this. Jesus, as man, did exactly what each man and woman on earth is called to do:

    Heb 2:10 ¶ For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    You ought to look at that verse and wonder what it means that Jesus had to be made "perfect through sufferings".

    Well? What does it mean?

    That's enough. Chew on that and give me a response.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed

    PS If you wish to see what this "theosis" looks like, go to Matthew 17 and observe the Transfiguration. That is our inheritance in Christ Jesus and the goal of all believers, that we might, through Jesus Christ, share in His glory.
     
  4. Ps104_33

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    thats ok I dont chew on rotten fruit. [​IMG]

    It does say we will become GOD and there is only one God so that seems like blasphemy to me.

    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1Cor 8:6

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;1Tim 2:5
     
  5. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    BTW ED, Not to get off the subject, but are you any where near Altoona?
     
  6. CatholicConvert

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    thats ok I dont chew on rotten fruit

    First off, that was unnecessary.

    We will be in union with God, part of God, "one flesh" with Him (from the marriage analogy) and so united to Him that we will in a sense be indistinguishable from Him. Yet we will retain our individuality as does each person of the Blessed Trinity.

    Did you read the greater context of St. Athanasius' writing, or just decide to take issue with it on its face value?

    FYI -- I am right outside Harrisburg. I can see the governor's mansion from my back window. Three Mile Island is to our right and the Rock Creek Bridge to our left on each side of the Susquehanna.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  7. Rakka Rage

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    thanks for opening my eyes, we shall be as gods!!!
     
  8. CatholicConvert

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    Yes. That is what happened to Jesus, the MAN. Remember proper Christology -- TWO natures, separate in one person. Therefore, to speak of Jesus is to speak of a HUMAN BEING -- who identified Himself as such by the title "The Son of Man" -- in His nature and person.

    In Matthew 17 we see this "theosis" reach a climatic point with the Transfiguration. It is the glory of the Godhead resting upon the MAN Who is the Son of God. Adam was also the son of God (Luke 3:38) and therefore could have had all that the man Jesus attained to (except the very essence and nature of God) and could have achieved this transfiguration as he grew in righteousness in the Garden.

    And that is the journey you and I are on right now. We are being matured and grown into our full inheritance in Christ so that we might share in His glory, which is a gift of grace to us.

    But NEVER EVER will we be of the same ESSENCE that God is. That is the blasphemy of the New Agers and Reincarnationist religions.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  9. Rakka Rage

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    so when St Athanasius says: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God" he means "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God (but not in essence)"

    "become God" means "become God", essentially
     
  10. CatholicConvert

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    I suppose if you wish, you can put any meaning you wish to a man's words. In politics, this is done all the time and is called "spin". Another word for it might be "dishonesty". Do you just wish to be contentious or to learn?

    Morality is indispensable: but the Divine Life, which gives itself to us and which calls us to be gods, intends for us something in which morality will be swallowed up. We are to be remade. . . . we shall find underneath it all a thing we have never yet imagined: a real man, an ageless god, a son of God, strong, radiant, wise, beautiful, and drenched in joy.
    —C. S. Lewis, The Grand Miracle, p. 85

    You know, Jesus is the "first fruits" of all those who will find salvation in Him. He was man Who was also God, yet distinct and separate from the Father. The only difference between He and us is that the full ESSENCE of the Godhead resided in Him. We will never have that, but in our union with God, we shall be as He is in every other way.

    God) said that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him if we choose—He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for.
    —C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity 174-5


    I did a search and found a nice site on this:

    THEOSIS

    Might be helpful for you to read this instead of putting words into St. Athanasius' mouth which he did not intend.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  11. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    Ed, my man. I got that quote from you! You used that one on me once in a previous post and I thought you would remember it. Youre gettin old. Memory might be slippin'.
     
  12. CatholicConvert

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    Touche, Psalms. Ya got me!!!

    Score one for your side.

    You are right, and I was wrong to say that.

    Brother Ed
     
  13. Carson Weber

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    I'm currently reading From Death to Life: The Christian Journey by Christoph Cardinal Schonborn in my spare time, and I highly suggest it for anyone who is interested in our deification as well as the nature of the Church as Kingdom.

    You can read the table of contents here:

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898705355/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/002-0074898-8569672?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link

    It touches upon this subject and is very, very illuminating with quotes from the Fathers throughout.

    Cardinal Schonborn is currently the Archbishop of Vienna, Austria, an incredible Christian, and a friend of our university/faculty.

    [​IMG]

    "For Athanasius, as for the other Fathers who engage in the struggle against Arianism, the deification of man is one of the chief arguments for the divinity of Christ and, at a somewhat later date, for the divinity of the Holy Spirit: 'The Logos does not in the least belong among the created things: rather, he is their Creator. This is why he took on a created and human body, in order to renew it as its Creator and to deify it in himself and thus to lead us all with him into the kingdom of heaven, in keeping with the resemblance we are given to him. Since he united himself to a creature, man would not have been deified anew had not the Son been true God. Man would not have come closer to the Father unless the One who assumed a human body had been the natural and true Logos of the Father. And just as we would not have been freed from sin and the curse if the flesh taken on by the Logos had not been a human flesh in terms of its nature - since we have nothing in common with an alien being - even so man would not have been deified had not the incarnate One been begotten of the Father as his own true Logos. For this reason, the unification (sunaphe) took place in this way, so that the human nature would be united to the divine, thus ensuring its salvation and its deification.' [Athanasius, Ar. I, 70; PG 26, 196 AB.]"

    From Death to Life, Christoph Schonborn (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1995) 46-47.

    [ February 07, 2003, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
  14. Carson Weber

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    I was purchasing a Snapple in our Student Center today when, out of all people, Marcus Grodi started making a cup of coffee next to where I was standing:

    [​IMG]

    Mr. Grodi (former Presbyterian pastor) is the President/Executive Director of the Coming Home Network - http://www.chnetwork.org - which began in 1993.

    It's mission statement: "During the past few years particularly, there have been hundreds of pastors and laymen of every conceivable religious tradition showing intense interest in the truths of the Catholic Faith and entering with great joy into the Catholic Church. Even though their conversions may have required great sacrifice, including the loss of friends, family and vocation, they yet believe with all of their hearts that they have truly 'come home.' The purpose of The Coming Home Network International (CHNetwork) is to provide fellowship, encouragement and support for Protestant pastors and laymen who are somewhere along the journey or have already been received into the Catholic Church. The CHNetwork is committed to assisting and standing beside all inquirers, serving as a friend and an advocate."

    Marcus Grodi also hosts The Journey Home on the Eternal Word Television Network:

    http://www.ewtn.com/journeyhome

    And did I forget to mention that I saw and met JESUS again today at Mass!!! Wooohoooooo!!!
     
  15. 3AngelsMom

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    Signs of the Times.

    That organization is oozing of prophetic fulfillment.

    One world religion anyone?
     
  16. Carson Weber

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    One world religion anyone?

    Yes, the Catholic Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church that Jesus Christ founded. Two of these pillars are "one" and "catholic".

    That is, it is unified and it is universal - the message of salvation in Jesus Christ is for everyone: Jew, Gentile, male, female, slave or free.

    The Church has been a one world religion since it's conception and it will continue to be unified, throughout the world, composed as it is of individuals from just about every conceivable background.
     
  17. 3AngelsMom

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    That's not quite what I meant, but hey, that's nice too! [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Carson Weber

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    [​IMG]

    ^--- Now that's hilarious!
     
  19. Rakka Rage

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    there will only ever be one "God". "I AM"

    presumption is fun though.

    are you calling me a heritic (Arianism)?
     
  20. Carson Weber

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    Hi Rakka,

    You wrote, "there will only ever be one "God". "I AM" presumption is fun though. are you calling me a heritic (Arianism)?"

    No, I'm not. Arianism was one of the earliest heresies of the Church, and it still continues today in various sects such as the Jehovah's Witnesses. The heresy is coined after Arius, the heresiarch (b. 250; d. 336), who insisted that "there was a time when he [the Son of God] was not [did not exist]."

    Yes, there is only one God, and, he has only one nature: the divine nature. As Christians, our salvation is our being made "partakers of the divine nature" (That's in 2 Pet 1:4). Another word for this is deification.

    This isn't an outrageous teaching that only Catholics hold to. Basically, it's as fundamental to Christianity as the Trinity.
     

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