God cannot lie!!!!

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by TomMann, Jul 14, 2004.

  1. TomMann

    TomMann
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    The following is taken from a recent post.....

    ...and the first thing that comes to my mind is that I do not attribute the fact that God cannot lie to his nature of holiness, but rather, to the power of his Word. If God says something is.... it is. Consider me a nut or fanatic but I think we miss the point on what transpires when God speaks. When spoken of God... the thing spoken becomes. If God said that Mount Everest was a mole hill, would God be a liar for calling a majestic mountain a mole hill..... or would that majestic mountain be a mole hill?

    Morever...., was David a man after God's heart before God said it, or did it become because God said it? Was God commenting on the condition of David's heart, or creating in him a new heart?

     
  2. npetreley

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    TomMann,

    I agree with you 100%.

    Is the reverse, therefore, also true? That whatever comes to pass does so because God has spoken it?
     
  3. TomMann

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    [​IMG] Ya got it..... as in

    John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    KJV
    [​IMG]
     
  4. npetreley

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    Amazing, ain't it? God is sovereign over his own creation. What a concept! [​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  5. StefanM

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    You can take this line of argument to absurdity though. If God said, "that rock is a rock that I cannot lift," then would he no longer be powerful enough to lift the rock, thereby eliminating his omnipotence?

    Also, in a way, this may be limiting God. Under this theory, God would be totally incapable of making any truthful observations or figurative expressions, for as soon as the words started to pour out, then *poof*--creation.

    If you extend this to Christ's ministry, then when Jesus said, "Get behind me, Satan," to Peter, Peter should have been transformed in that instant into Satan himself. The same effect should be found in the "this is my body" verses. *Poof*, Jesus' flesh is on the table.

    On the issue of Everest, I'll make a hypothetical situation similar to many OT passages.

    Let's say that a group of people being to worship Mt. Everest as a "majestic mountain." Now, if God said to them, "Your majestic mountain is worthless, a mole hill in the midst of the nations. Repent and know that I am the LORD." The mountain would not become a mole hill; God would have been merely using a figure of speech to express a point.

    Also what would prevent God from literally saying, "I do not exist." If his word holds such power, then God would cease to exist (thereby ironically giving credence to "God is dead" philosophy). I believe God would not make a literal statement like this because he is truthful and does not lie.

    My point is this: God has the power to create with his word, but this power is only used when God actually intends to use it. I believe God can (and does) make observations of fact that would be entirely truthful (to fit with his nature). If you hold to omnipotence, you must believe that God has the ability to lie, if he chose to do so, but we know he is truthful and would not choose to do so.
     
  6. npetreley

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    That's what I think you did! ;)

    Speaking strictly for myself (although I think TomMann was probably thinking along these lines, too), there's are different "God says" concepts. For example, there's a difference between God speaking, as in having a conversation, and God declaring, which is to say that whatever He says stands, and cannot be reversed except God Himself reverse it.

    There is also the issue of God's sovereignty in all of creation, and it doesn't necessarily mean God spoke every detail in order to make it happen. Jesus says that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from the Father's will. That doesn't necessarily mean God had to say, "Hey, sparrow! Fall to the ground now!"

    Nothing whatsoever happens apart from God's will. If, before the creation of time, God foreknew every detail of His creation (the truth of which should be self-evident) then whether He ordered it so, or simply foreknew it to be so, that today you would stub your toe, then you WILL stub your toe. Nothing can stop you from stubbing your toe today except God, should He change His mind and decide to prevent it.
     
  7. Me2

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    God knows beforehand what will happen because he created completely to begin with in the spirit realm.

    from beginning to end. every second worked out unto its ultimate conclusion.

    does God know youll stub your toe. you bet. he allowed it to become a part of your day! Wohoo!

    think about the other 100's of thousands stubbing their toes today also. God loves to create on a grand scale..dont he. [​IMG]

    nor does God change his mind. His plans are like a photograph. the picture has been taken.

    thats a rap!

    the elect has been chosen and the next scene we see... the editing.

    we are becoming what it takes to be the final picture.

    I agree nothing can happen or be created outside Gods will...I mean plans..

    sovereignty is complicated, aint it!

    Me2
     
  8. Marcia

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    Back to God not telling a lie....

    I think this does have to do with his character. He is all good, therefore, he cannot lie. He is truth itself, therefore, he cannot lie. I do not think he can lie - not just that he chooses not to. He does not violate his own nature or he would not be God.

    This goes the same for being just, merciful, etc. If God could be unjust, he would not be God.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    True. But the fact that He has absolute knowledge of the future is not "accomplished" by His preventing anyone from having free will.

    Rather He knows the future even though we have been given free will.

    Christ Himself had free will - and 'yet' God still knew everything. This is true of both fallen and unfallen beings - they have been given free will - "and yet" God knows everything.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. npetreley

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    I would disagree with that. Adam was the only living human to have completely "free will" (or if not, then the closest thing to it that is possible). He could not only choose to do whatever he wanted to do (within the confines of whatever limitations he had as a human), and since his nature was simply one of "innocence", he could choose to obey or disobey God.

    Man has "free will" within the confines of his nature. He can choose to do whatever he wants to do, but since his nature is emnity against God, he WILL NOT choose to respond to the Gospel.

    Jesus had "free will" within the confines of His nature. He could choose to do whatever he wanted to do, but since his nature was to be submissive and obedient to His Father, he WOULD NOT and WILL NOT choose to do anything BUT submit and obey His Father.
     
  11. npetreley

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    That, IMO, is the crux of the issue. It is a contradiction in terms to say that truth can lie.
     
  12. Me2

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    truth and error exists in Gods mind as opposing potential choices. truth exists yet if error is not acted upon.
    can we say it doesnt exist?

    can we say that the knowledge of Good and evil are not a part of the image of Christ?

    the knowledge of evil IS present within this image, yet someday it will only exist in memory form.

    the knowledge of evil will be returning back into a potential choice no longer acted upon.

    can we say that God is evil for the flood?
    yet he gives the excuse that man is evil and must be destroyed.
    yet the flood was preplanned in the physical structure of the world.

    but the image was complete before creation physically existed.

    therefore the flood, man and God being evil is moot.

    the image is the truth. it is the plumbline concerning relativity of the two opposing choices.

    Good outweighs evil. truth outweighs error.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    So then -- what made him choose as he did?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. npetreley

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    I have no idea. I could guess if you like, but my guess isn't worth much. My guess is that if you create a fleshly being with fleshly desires and self-will, then even if you create that being totally innocent, given the choice, sooner or later it will put itself first.

    But that's just a guess. The Bible doesn't say WHY Adam disobeyed. It just tells us he did.
     
  15. TomMann

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    Sometimes posting on this board feels like tossing a bone to a pack of dogs, and then watching as they fight over it and drag it around! Now notice I didn't say that is what happens, only that that is what it feels like....

    I stand by my belief in my posts and answer only to the what if's.... with.... (i.e.... what if God said I can't lift this rock...etc....) I'm sure you understand that God is measured and well purposed in his discourse.

    Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
    KJV
     
  16. BobRyan

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    [/QUOTE]Nick said --I have no idea. I could guess if you like, but my guess isn't worth much. My guess is that if you create a fleshly being with fleshly desires and self-will, then even if you create that being totally innocent, given the choice, sooner or later it will put itself first. [/quote]

    IF that were true - then all angels will eventually rebell against God. I don't see that predicted in scripture.

    If on the other hand it is not "certain" that merely existing with free will means you "must" choose to rebell. Then the "difference" is all bound up in "free will". Nothing else is available to account for the difference.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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