God chooses randomly?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Jarlaxle, Feb 3, 2003.

  1. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle
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    sturgman, you wrote in another thread:
    Please explain to me what "gregerated" means and how, when, and why this happens.

    [ February 03, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Jarlaxle ]
     
  2. npetreley

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    I'm guessing it's a typo, and was supposed to be "regenerated."
     
  3. Jarlaxle

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    When, why, and how does it happen?
     
  4. npetreley

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    Why do you ask? Are you interested in becoming regenerated, too? ;)
     
  5. Jarlaxle

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    I want to understand the entire process you believe so that I will understand why you interpret scripture differently than I do. And of course if I agree with you in the end, I will by all means welcome such an interpretation. I am not too proud to admit when I am wrong, but for I have changed my belief several times in my life. From extreme conservative Church of Christ, to athiest, to something in between Church of Christ and Baptist.
     
  6. Frogman

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    I am thankful for your interest in this process.

    So that you know, I think your agreement should be with the Word of God. I believe regeneration is initiated when God the Father sends the Holy Spirit to an unbeliever and that person is enlightened as to their position as a sinner. The Spirit leads the person in Godly sorrow and repentance of the old nature, and enables the person to rely wholly upon the finished work of Christ for salvation. Anything mixed with this process mixes works with the Grace of God, by which this process is brought to individuals.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  7. Jarlaxle

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    Does God choose which ones at random?
     
  8. romanbear

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    Hi Frogman; [​IMG]
    a Quote from you;
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    I believe regeneration is initiated when God the Father sends the Holy Spirit to an unbeliever and that person is enlightened as to their position as a sinner.The Spirit leads the person in Godly sorrow and repentance of the old nature, and enables the person to rely wholly upon the finished work of Christ for salvation.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    My questions;
    How can someone be regenerated before they believe?.Since regenerated means to be made new,,,,,, would also mean Saved......We cannot be saved before we believe,,,,,, can we?"And we can't believe until we are regenerated .Many are called and few are chosen"a quote from many of the Calvinist I have talked with here at B.B.com. Do you believe that you are saved before the foundation of the world?Please understand I'm not trying to be sarcastic.If "we are dead because of sin" then how can we come to God. We can't believe in him because we are dead so we must be saved before we can believe in Him?. :confused:
    Romanbear
     
  9. Frogman

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    The most important question I have heard here and other places is: "Did Jesus die for all sin, or do men die and receive condemnation because of their unbelief?"

    I believe Jesus died for all sin, including the sin of unbelief.

    I do not understand the Will and Purpose of God in many things, the matter of salvation included, except to say it is for the Glory of His Grace. Some things are not for us to understand. The choosing belongs to God, simply because the Bible reveals to us that God has created all things and all things are his, Ezekiel tells us all souls belong to him, to Jeremiah he taught the lesson that he can do what he wished, even as the potter with the clay, to Nebuchadnezzer he has declared He does his will in heaven and among the host of man. It is because of our finite and our sinful natures that we question the justice, righteousness of God in a way which we apply our emotions. Something is not considered fair based upon humanistic philosophies, rather than Biblical principles.

    The truth is God chooses, He chose in eternity, and settled it in eternity in covenant with the Second Person of the Godhead; The covenant then was completed in time when Christ came in the flesh and himself purged our sins on calvary.

    This does not mean that God has chosen at random; in the consummation of all things, even the condemnation of the lost, of satan and the fallen angels will be for the Praise of the Glory of His Grace.

    Our task is not to decide what man, or group of men, however religious, are correct, but to seek for the revelation of truth from the Word of God; only in this way can your questions be answered and only in this way can you find the rest in Christ which will end your search and changing of your mind.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. Frogman

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    Thanks for your questions Bro. Romanbear.

    I do not believe we can believe the Gospel until we are regenerated.

    Romans 10.14 says "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed"

    Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit shows us our true nature, (before we each do that which is right in our own eyes and justify ourselves), once we see our nakedness before God, we are turned to God and then we repent, in all this God moves and works to make us the new creature, which we know as the release of the burden of our conviction.

    Yes, I also believe all who are and shall be saved were written in the Lamb's book of Life before the foundation of the world; This does not change the course for which God has determined whereby to save men.

    Galatians 4.6 says to us: "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying Abba, Father."

    If we believe we truly are dead in sin, then how can we move toward regeneration before having the life which is in Christ Jesus move us? (the quickening of the Spirit). Being dead, we also are helpless, and must be made alive (spiritually speaking, for we are not yet physically dead, proven by our body processes) though we are alive physically we are dead spiritually, and spiritually we cannot repent, nor choose to accept the life in Christ apart from His quickening of us.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. Harald

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    I believe and am convinced that the teaching of the Holy Scriptures of truth is that regeneration by the voice of the Son of God precedes Gospel conversion in the power and demonstration of the Spirit of Christ. God the Father regenerates, God the Son regenerates, and God the Spirit regenerates. Regeneration by God the Holy Spirit is a sovereign divine act, instantaneous and independent of earthly means, but not independent of God the Son and God the Father, nor in contradiction to what the Bible teaches about regeneration. In regeneration or the new birth the chosen and redeemed sinner is entirely passive when the Spirit begets him/her from above, thus it is not an experience, like as religious liars claim. Without sovereign divine quickening there can be no spiritual faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, also called "saving faith". The NT does not contain the words "saving faith" as such, they are used in soteriology, the study of the doctrine of salvation.

    Most religionists have a hard time with the (Biblical) teaching that a sinner can be a regenerate person but not converted Gospel-wise. This is not to say God regenerates sinners and leaves them regenerate but unconverted until physical death. Most so called Calvinists are hostile to this biblical teaching, erroneously teaching that regeneration and saving faith so called occur simultaneously, i.e. that a regenerated sinner straightway believes in the Lord Jesus Christ as his/her Saviour upon God regenerating him/her. But this is no wonder, as Calvinism is not same as Christ's doctrine, and Calvin taught many errors. After having seen some quotes of Calvin from his commentary on Romans it seems to me like he taught some kind of version of the heresy of gospel regeneration. That is a heresy which the doctrine of Christ knows nothing of.

    Harald
     
  12. romanbear

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    Hi frogman [​IMG] ;
    When you were saved or should we call it have come to the knowledge of being saved.If I understand you. You are saying that if you had never heard the Gospel you still would have been saved because you were pre selected by God.Is this right?I believe this is what Billy Graham said in his interview with schuller on his national T.V. broadcast.Some found this to be offensive.That it is not Biblical.I agree we have to drawn by the Holy Spirit, which is being chosen by God.I agree with this.But as far as being Irresistible I don't think so.I have to admit that I love the Lord with all my heart.I also admit that He chose me.But I chose Him as well.I had to give in and give up to Christ.I didn't have to. I did because I believed.While I agree I was chosen. I was not forced to accept Christ as some have tried to tell me.I believe that everyone who will listens to the Gospel being preached is drawn and can and do resist.myself as an example.I went to church with my folks through out all of my childhood.I did not believe in Christ for the first 16 years and when I did except this belief I accepted it only after reaching the bottom of my own rebellion.But still I felt the drawing of the Holy Spirit every Sunday.
    My frustration is this. While there are Calvinist who do show Love for there fellow believer. there seems to be few who do. As you have by taken the time to explain your views without snod remarks and intellectual snares I readily thankyou for.I wonder would you give an explanation of Jn.3:16
    You see some have told me that words such as world and whosoever don't really mean what the dictionary say they mean.The Strong's dictionary say both these words mean all,or everyone.You see I believe that when Christ' Blood was shed that this loving act He did for all has more power than some would have us believe.The Bible clearly teaches that all who call on the name of the lord shall be saved.How can acknowledging Him be considered a work?First we are called but we still have to answer that call.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  13. tyndale1946

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    Jarlaxle... This is not for you only but for everyone on here... According to posting rule... 7. Use descriptive subject lines. This makes it easier for people to see what your post is about. Do not use another member's screen names in topic titles.

    Please edit your post and don't use the members screen name in the original post as this is a no no!... Brother Glen Moderator [​IMG]
     
  14. Jarlaxle

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    If the selection is not random, then there must be something about those that are selected which is pleases God to select them; no?
     
  15. Frogman

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    Bro. Romanbear,

    I believe my position of election purposed my hearing and believing of the Gospel, thus, my salvation.

    2 Thess. 2.13 speaks my belief better than I can describe or explain it.

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

    Here is the foundation of my belief;

    As to a special quality God sees in believers, there is none, all are sinners and deserving of the wrath of God.

    Our problem here is that we (all as humankind) do not want to admit that we see no problem with our sinfulness, that we prefer this as it brings to our satisfaction immediacy of the lusts of our flesh, from the least offensive to the most murderous desire in our hearts, all unrighteousness is sin, thus we believe because we are not as offensive (openly or secretly, as many of our sins are known only to ourselves, except God), we believe this constitutes that "something" which God saw in us and thus chose us, this is error.

    The truth is God saw nothing in us individually, our condition required the sending of His Son to pay the penalty and answer the justice of God, that the mercy, grace, and love of God can be shed abroad in the hearts of men, from the most timid sinner to the most atrocious.

    For this reason is it for the Praise of the Glory of His Grace. Not because he has chosen me, but because He has chosen to provide salvation.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  16. Jarlaxle

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    Thank you, tyndale1946, and I am sorry for my ignorant mistake [​IMG]
     
  17. tyndale1946

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    No problem just a friendly reminder... The link to posting rules can be found at the bottom of this page for all concerned... Continue the discussion on regeneration I may jump in here shortly... but pose this question how can men seek God until they are regenerated?... Ephesians 2:1 is a good place to start! IMHO!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  18. sturgman

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    Yes, we are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

    Yes we are regenerated before we believe.

    Irresistable grace is not God forcing salvation upon us, it is God opening up our eyes to the condition of our nature and sin state, and showing us his grace and this is the most rational of responces. Rational people aren't in hell, and what I mean by that is this, If God opens our eyes to see the truth about who we are and what is is giving us, we will respond by showing our affection to Him. My son was born because my wife and I decided to bestow our love upon our offspring. He did not choose to be born because He loved his parents. Now as we (who are imperfect parents) show our love to him, he is responding with love and affection. Now if God, because of His love chose to save us, wouldn't it be a rational thing to show our affections to Him?

    Lastly, many people hear of election and automatically respond to it like Nazi Germany, as if God were lining them up and saying "You to hell, you go to heaven, you and you to hell" That is not the case at all. God has his sovereign purpose in all of it, and I believe one day we will know why. Now as Jarlaxle has said, and some others also asume that there must be something about the elect that causes them to merrit Gods favor. If that were the case, then it would no longer be grace, Romans 11. Let me put it like this, my wife is gorgeous, I am the him in "She married him!!!" What if you lined up 10 of the most handsome, talented and wealthy men ever known to the world. Then you put me, a fat, ugly, minister salaried me in that line up. And she were to look us over and say" I want the fat guy". I would ask here what she had been smoking, because why, if she had all these others to choose from that were way better than me would you choose me? Her responce might well be, because I have the right to choose. You see it is nothing that we have done that merrits God's favor. If it was then when we get to heaven we couldn't praise him entirely for his mercy, we could only praise him for his godd decision making. But it is by grace alone. I tell my son everyday that God loves him, and then I say, you know why God loves you? And I answer, Because God is good. Why did God choose to save me, because God is good. He violated my will because he was gracious enough to save me. What about those he did not choose, he merely let them do exactly what they willed to do, to go on sinning.

    I hope all that made sense.

    In love,
    sturgman
     
  19. Jarlaxle

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    Not so.

    Firstly, you said “merit God’s favor” and I said nothing of the sort. I specifically said there must be something about the person that pleases God to select them. That has nothing to do with merit. If I am a criminal an go before the judge repenting, the judge is in no way obliged to show me mercy. However, if it pleases him, then he can give forgiveness and pay for my crime for me without me having ever merited a single thing.

    Secondly, we have all performed in such a way as to merit eternal damnation. Therefore, any and all that get to go to Heaven get to go on grace alone.

    Please do not take this as an “attack” or anything else of that sort. I am simply showing that the quoted reasoning is incorrect.
     
  20. npetreley

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    And you know this how?

    Using your own conclusion, there must be something about you that made the judge decide to show you mercy and not someone else. That's merit. In the judge's view, you merited mercy where someone else did not.

    So your argument is based on a flimsy game of semantics.

    As you said, "Please do not take this as an “attack” or anything else of that sort. I am simply showing that the quoted reasoning is incorrect."
     

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